UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B • Hacker News Board

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#181

Post by colesantiago » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:38 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #147

colesantiago wrote: post #61

UPI is one of the best payment systems invented and in under 10 years has more transactions, use cases and ease of use than cryptocurrencies which is clearly terrible for payments. This shows that UPI has the potential to scale beyond India yet crypto cannot scale at all.

As we see more of these payment systems emerge, crypto will become more important. The thing about large centralized systems it that sooner or later, they will end up with more virtual units than they can back with real currency and there will be a run on these platforms. History may not repeat itself, but it rhymes. Centralized systems are inherently unreliable and impossible to reliably audit as they can self-repor…

So why is it that UPI has gained more usage in one country than crypto has worldwide in a short space of time?

Even MPesa has more usage than crypto has in more countries since it was launched around the same time that Bitcoin was released.

Even with all of this, cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin having sluggish transactions per second causes those to just use centralised systems such as UPI.

Those in crypto circles keep heralding the phrase 'banking the unbanked' but it seems that those people in 'unbanked' countries have built a better system than crypto was intending to solve in under 10 years.

It stands to question crypto's relevance in the first place as a means for payments (not speculation which it is mostly used for)

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#182

Post by vinay_ys » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:43 AM UTC

davelondon wrote: post #125

I was in India earlier this year, and found there was no way (and I spent hours trying) for a foreigner to get access to the UPI system. This meant: 1) There were some cashless fast food outlets that I couldn't eat at 2) There was no way for me to book an intercity bus ticket I eventually managed to get a bus ticket by sweet-talking someone in a shop to use their personal UPI account in exchange for cash. I fear ther…

There are two ways for a foreigners to use UPI.

1. If you are from one of G20 countries (for now, will expand to other countries), you can get a prepaid UPI digital wallet at the airport where you land. Just go to the money exchange counters and enquire about this. Airport information desk should help you as well. You don't need an India phone number or India bank account. You can load money into this prepaid wallet via your foreign account or credit card etc. You can use your passport as document for KYC purposes. This is most convenient for short visits. The UPI app issued will be by some forex company. When you leave India, whatever Rupee balance in the app will be refunded to you at the airport. The UPI apps that are most popular with Indians (GPay, PhonePe, PayTM) won't work for this.

2. If you are not from G20 or you are going to be in India for longer than a week, you are likely to get a local phone number. You can get a local prepaid phone number sim at the airport. Then, you can open a bank account in India, tied to that phone number. This account type is called NRO Rupee account – Non Resident Ordinary account. This entire process of opening an NRO account can be done at a bank branch physically or online via your mobile phone. Once you have that bank account, you can use any UPI app like any Indian does.

See:

1. https://www.indiafilings.com/learn/opening-bank-account-indi...

2. https://rbi.org.in/scripts/FAQView.aspx?Id=16

3. https://wise.com/in/blog/upi-international-transfers

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#183

Post by sateesh » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:43 AM UTC

Sai_ wrote: post #175

sateesh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not op, prior to UPI all these transactions were done using cash, credit card penentration in India was quite low.

Minor correction - prior to UPI, transaction either happened via cash OR didn’t happen at all. I think the hidden value of UPI is that it makes doing business easier which is of huge value. People sitting on money has never helped any economy…especially at the level that UPI operates - ie enabling petty spending greases the wheels of the economy and lifts people out of poverty. For example, say I want to buy coconut…

Not necessarily true, most of the petty transactions cater the inelastic demands (like groceries, daily medication etc. ).

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#184

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:45 AM UTC

kilotaras wrote: post #73

ryanjshaw wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already a thing, but it works the other way around. Here in South Africa, the largest private short-term health insurer gives you up to 75% cash back for 'healthy food choices' [1] i.e. they effectively reduce your premiums if you signal that you make healthier choices than other people in the fund. The law in South Africa says that short-term health insurers can't charge different people different premiums,…

> This is already a thing, but it works the other way around. Sorry for being pedantic, but charging "bad customers" $XXX and charging everyone $XXX more, whilst giving everyone but "bad customer" $XXX back, are equivalent.

[deleted]

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#185

Post by vinay_ys » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:48 AM UTC

db1234 wrote: post #5

The most incredible thing about UPI is how it was embraced by even the poorest in the remote corners of India. One of the former finance ministers of India talked in a dismissive tone in the parliament about rural India adopting digital payments when the current government announced "Digital India" plan. Some one made a meme video out of it mocking him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnv8gwN0ug Another video showin…

Super affordable smartphones and cheap and fast 4G data, great apps like GPay and PhonePe with lots of gamification and cashbacks and ubiquitous merchant acceptance through apps like PayTM, PhonePe and GPay were key drivers for this.

Then, demonetization and covid were accelerants to achieve critical mass. Post 2022, its been unstoppable.

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#186

Post by gmerc » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:50 AM UTC

phantomathkg wrote: post #146

cornholio wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it's a good example of developing countries skipping technological nodes and ending up with better solutions. For example, most of eastern Europe was already using fiber/copper Ethernet 15-20 years ago, while most western Europe and US were stuck with crappy DSL lines. In the payment processing sphere, we are stuck with a duopoly that charges insane fees for something that was very complex and labor intens…

But is QR Code scanning a better solution? Credit card cloning only affect the legacy magnetic strip I think? Someone can just stick a QR code on top of the office one. [1] [1]: https://www.straitstimes.com/tech/can-i-trust-this-qr-code-c...

These systems work with several modes, UEN (Unique entity number, Phone number, National Id Number and QR)

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#187

Post by heavenlyblue » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:51 AM UTC

db1234 wrote: post #5

The most incredible thing about UPI is how it was embraced by even the poorest in the remote corners of India. One of the former finance ministers of India talked in a dismissive tone in the parliament about rural India adopting digital payments when the current government announced "Digital India" plan. Some one made a meme video out of it mocking him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCnv8gwN0ug Another video showin…

If that road side vendor doesn't have access to a phone, how does she know the payment was made?

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#188

Post by deskamess » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:52 AM UTC

illegalmemory wrote: post #137

davelondon wrote: post #125

I was in India earlier this year, and found there was no way (and I spent hours trying) for a foreigner to get access to the UPI system. This meant: 1) There were some cashless fast food outlets that I couldn't eat at 2) There was no way for me to book an intercity bus ticket I eventually managed to get a bus ticket by sweet-talking someone in a shop to use their personal UPI account in exchange for cash. I fear ther…

You can soon do UPI even if you don't have Indian bank account, you can just download an app and connect any payment source to your UPI ID. https://inc42.com/buzz/japan-may-join-the-growing-list-of-co...

I was back there 2 months ago. That facility was not available and I was from one of the 20 countries that are allowed (you can specify a US/Can phone number). I downloaded PhonePe and PayTm. You at least needed a NRE (rupee) account. What seemed to work always was tap. But I think the tap amount was always If you have guidance on how to setup Google Pay/other with UPI it would be appreciated. I even tried updating my Google Pay software to get the Indian version in the hope it would work.

UPI is great and I hope it becomes worldwide. I think they started in France recently. If you are an Indian citizen/OCI holder encourage your foreign banks to get involved. I do not have much hope for Canadian oligopoly banks but if a bank in the US got it I would move some of my money there.

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#189

Post by bheadmaster » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:54 AM UTC

nopinsight wrote: post #172

bheadmaster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of health insurance is to ammortize the unpredictable costs of healthcare amongst a large number of people. If health insurance companies start discriminating ahead of time based on "predictions of disease" then the whole point of insurance falls apart. Might as well abolish it and let everyone pay for their medical bills on their own. Which would be actually more fair than paying a "unhealthy food pr…

Accidents and health problems are not completely predictable for an individual, but the rates are for different groups of people. As long as it’s within their power to choose, they should accept the consequences that come with their choices. If all your neighbors play extreme sports or drive drunk all the time, would you like to pay the same premium as they do in the same insurance pool? It’s an established practice…

> If all your neighbors play extreme sports or drive drunk all the time, would you like to pay the same premium as they do in the same insurance pool?

Yes, because choosing otherwise opens the door to discrimination based on many factors, many of which can be completely out of our control.

What if you're working a job with a non-insignificant risk of danger - should your premiums be higher? After all, you chose to work in that profession and to put the last 20 years of your life specializing in it. You should've just chosen differently...

What if you're living in a neighborhood with a high crime rate - should your premiums be higher? After all, you chose to inherit the house and live there and put the last 20 years of your life building a home and a social network there. You should've just chosen differently...

What if you're shortsighted which makes you more of a danger in traffic - should your premiums be higher? Maybe you didn't choose to be shortsighted, but you could change it with a laser surgery or whatever, and afterall, we're just following the model...

What if you're black - should your premiums be higher? Maybe you didn't choose to be black, but statistics show that black people are significantly more at risk of being victims of violent crime. And after all, we're not being racist, we're just follow the model...

Et cetera.

If you allow insurance companies to discriminate, eventually, everyone who isn't following the "safe path" will be discriminated against. At that point, the insurance stops being merely an amortization of unpredictable cost, and becomes a tool to control the population.

Re: UPI Payments: 10B transactions a month done, next stop 100B

#190

Post by deskamess » Sun, Sep 03, 2023, 10:55 AM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #159

davelondon wrote: post #125

I was in India earlier this year, and found there was no way (and I spent hours trying) for a foreigner to get access to the UPI system. This meant: 1) There were some cashless fast food outlets that I couldn't eat at 2) There was no way for me to book an intercity bus ticket I eventually managed to get a bus ticket by sweet-talking someone in a shop to use their personal UPI account in exchange for cash. I fear ther…

> I was in India earlier this year, and found there was no way (and I spent hours trying) for a foreigner to get access to the UPI system. never been to India. do they not support credit cards like the rest of the planet? visa/mastercard/amex? only UPI?

They accept credit cards in most well to do stores. However street side shops probably do not. Most business avoid it due to the fee. UPI has them hooked with no-fee right now but fees are expected in the future. But right now, they have a no-fee option which is better than mc/visa/amex.