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Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

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Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#181

Post by ThunderSizzle »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #111
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most important "breakup" needs to be the ads business from everything else, including search. That's going to hurt, and I don't have the answers to how to make it work, but changes are needed. You can be happy then. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-googl... The press release doesn't mention it, but the actual court document asks the court to: "Order the divestiture of, at minimum, the Goog…

Note, too, that this is the DoJ. They, unlike the FTC, actually know what they are doing.

Sarcasm alert?

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#182

Post by Animats »

UtopiaPunk wrote: post #83
caesil wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, Big Tech is an outsized part of what sets America's economy apart. Breaking up any of them would potentially be a footgun.

I agree that big tech is huge part of the American economy. In the 1900s, Teddy Roosevelt busted up the biggest monopolies and did it boldy. He was a strong believer in capitalism and market forces, and he believed that government had a responsibility to keep market forces working well. I know we are not in the early 1900s anymore, but I think it is interesting to ponder how the only politicians who dare to say somet…

> I know we are not in the early 1900s anymore...

We still have the antitrust laws of Teddy Roosevelt's era, the Clayton Act and the 1890 Sherman Act.

Sherman Act, Section 2:

"Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony."

The US Justice Department hasn't often applied that standard rigorously, but it can if it wants to.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#183

Post by jimbo_joe »

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

This will immediately kill some of the parts (Chrome, Analytics, Alphabet) and increase the antitrust issues in others (Cloud, YouTube)

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#184

Post by dns_snek »

cowl wrote: post #149
drpixie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google or any other Browser vendor do not have a say on how websites use or misuse features. Seriously? Would you give the kiddies sharp knives and loaded guns, and then be shocked when someone is injured? If we let this become available, we will all have to live with the consequences. We can see clearly what those consequences will be. Let's not be stupid.

This overboard generalizations is what make me sure that everyone is just gut-reacting. Have you read the actual proposal (not an article about it)? In your knife-analogy, Google is producing sharp knifes for the cooks, not the children. the DRM crowd here is saying but what if the Cook uses the knife the attack the restaurant clients? Do you know of anyone seriously discussing that we should stop all production of k…

> the DRM crowd here is saying but what if the Cook uses the knife the attack the restaurant clients?

Your analogy once again falls apart because in this hypothetical scenario, the cooks have a decade-long history of attacking the guests every single time they get a hold of a new knife.

In which case, yes, these cooks shouldn't have access to knives anymore. Of course that's not very practical, so perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to work as cooks anymore - i.e. separate Chrome from the ad business at the regulatory level and use Firefox or other alternatives on a personal level.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#185

Post by gumby »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #64
Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

Nit: Google Cloud has been profitable this year: https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/25/google-cloud-turns-profit-... It's actually perfectly fine to lose money; you have to invest before you can start making a profit, and services like Google Cloud can be money printers once they're established. But all the cloud providers are competing hard, pumping money into 3rd parties / partners that will then sell it and set it up…

> It's actually perfectly fine to lose money; you have to invest before you can start making a profit, and services like Google Cloud can be money printers once they're established.

It's not fine if you use a monopoly in one area to buy your way into another. That's one of the core tenets in antitrust (back when it was being enforced, at least).

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#186

Post by simiones »

bregma wrote: post #168
midoridensha wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this idea is that MS doesn't really have much leverage to push Edge on people any more. People aren't just using Windows PCs for their web browsing these days; lots of people are using mobile devices, and many don't even have PCs any more. Google and Apple control the mobile device market (roughly half and half, though it depends on which country you're in too). If a bunch of websites suddenly…

I sometimes have to use Microsoft Teams at work. Microsoft Teams requires Microsoft Edge to run. I was forced to install Microsoft Edge on my Ubuntu machine. Microsoft is pushing its Microsoft Edge product even on GNU/Linux. There are indeed the end times. I just saw cats lie down with dogs.

> Microsoft Teams requires Microsoft Edge to run.

Where exactly did you get this idea?

It runs fine on both Chrome and Firefox on desktop, including voice, camera, screen sharing. They also have desktop apps, including a .deb for Linux (since it's ultimately just an Electron app).

Well, perhaps "runs fine" is not exactly the right word for what Teams does, but it's as awful on every platform at least.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#188

Post by fuzzy2 »

tremon wrote: post #108
fuzzy2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the “nerd history”, which I mostly agree with. Normal users however don’t care much about performance and whatnot. Their PC came with Chrome, so they use it. If you give them some other browser, they probably won’t be able to tell the difference. Chrome didn’t “win” because it was good. It won because of Google’s hyper-aggressive marketing on all channels. They basically did was Microsoft was fined for by the…

Their PC came with Internet Explorer. It was Java (that almost everyone had to download at some point) that came with Chrome.

I'm thinking about more recent times. Internet Explorer has been dead for almost a decade now. Chrome did not kill it.

Chrome was however preinstalled on many PCs/laptops as part of the crapware package.

Also, yes, it came bundled with basically everything.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#189

Post by amelius »

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

> So make lots of noise politically about that.

How? I've seen similar ideas but the best they do is resonate really nicely in this echo chamber.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#190

Post by rocho »

samwillis wrote: post #49
Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

This may seem like a good idea but so much of Google's power comes from the Search + Search Ads monopoly. That is where they are anticompetitive to the max, that is where a change needs to happen. Splitting everything else off doesn't solve the core problem. Within Search + Search Ads you have a platform where Google are/have: - the sole vendor of a digital asset - ads - the sole marketplace for that asset - a closed…

Even if you split the search and ads divisions into two companies, what prevents them from entering into a partnership and keep doing whatever they do now?
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