Young people are flocking to astrology • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#181

Post by xiphias2 » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:22 AM UTC

fHr wrote: post #115

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

I have arguments over this all the time when going on dates. Since the pandemic the topic astrology came up a lot more though, I don't know why. Now I just go with it and show fake interest, makes it way easier. Ofcourse the whole time I'm thinking about ending myself rather than hearing this bs but at least they don't go batshit crazy on me(hitting me sometimes even) and calling me stupid for not trusting it. Clear…

It seems like you don't even know what you want. If it's a red flag, you should just end the date fast. If it's not, have fun with astrology instead of just ,,faking it''. The cool thing is as it's all made up, you can show your creative side :)

At the same time if you can think about ending yourself for something light and fun, you should go to psychologist to process why it's the case.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#182

Post by albert_e » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:30 AM UTC

I like to think of Astrology (the way ancient India / subcontinent attempted it) as the largest and most ambitious big data analytics project.

Whether they provided real results or just an illusion of it is up for debate. But some "actionable insights" were surely delivered :)

Keeping records of many independent variables (time and place of birth, positions of "planets" at the time of birth, and their movement againts constellations through ones lifetime) and then trying to correlate them with observed outcomes / results. (Personality traits and accomplishments).

Developing some latent representation of those input combinations. Giving them esoteric names that don't mean anything in real physical world. And then using those categories to make predectionas.

Might as well compare it to a neural network being trained to predict.

Is this line of comparison already attempted and well trodden? I am just curious -- maybe I am not the only one who thought of it this way? Even though I myself use this comparison semi jokingly.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#183

Post by jmkd » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

Pamar wrote: post #95

maxbond wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is a "very intelligent woman in a PhD program" who has a hobby that she shares with her friends, that's no reason to suspect she and her friends can't discuss "important things." My understanding as an outsider is that astrology, tarot, etc function as a shared vocabulary and mythology to communicate about mental health and life's troubles. I think for most people the occult elements are largely aesthetic.…

This is also an interesting/insightful comment. But again, Tarot (and especially Astrology: you cannot really change when you were born) do not encourage self analysis and especially any attempt to change your own mental models/way to do things. Hugo Pratt, author of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corto_Maltese - hinted at this in one of stories about the character. Allegedly Corto met some sort of Gypsy palm reader w…

You generalized tarot and astrology based on the predictive elements often seen in the media.

You are completely ignoring the primary motivation of both practices which is very much in attempting to understand yourself.

It's a shame when those who decry alternative systems do so using flawed logic.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#184

Post by goku12 » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:35 AM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #177

goku12 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I am, I can see religion and traditions destroying plenty of lives. Astrology often causes problems for many getting married. Not to mention the religious conflicts that take lives or rigid traditional views severely limits opportunities for many communities. Consumerism may be bad. But that doesn't justify the damages an unscientific world view can cause. Scientific temper also doesn't equate to consumeri…

Oh it's not only the astrology loons, you have the UFO crowd, conspiracy theories crowd, people who make their political cult leader a semi God, &c. it's also super easy to embrigade them in extremist causes by promising them to be part of a group Instead of having one big cohesive group you get hundreds of sub groups with a lot of conflicts I'm not advocating for going back to that, which wouldn't even be possible,…

Could you clarify what you consider as the thing we replaced the old tradition with? And what are its drawbacks?

I personally find it very liberating to not worry about someone else's concept of God or how the position of planets affect my future or how God judges everything I do. Religion and tradition has all the baggage that you associate with astrology loons and other conspiracy theorists.

Do you mean consumerism? If so, that isn't the result of replacing theocracy with scientific beliefs. Consumerism is the result of a highly imbalanced political belief. And it prioritizes momentary pleasures over long-term well being. It should have been possible to have a balanced and mostly self-sufficient life with a scientific world view. Unfortunately, we ended up prioritizing profits over happiness.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#185

Post by raverbashing » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:35 AM UTC

seer wrote: post #164

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

As the saying goes, “all models are wrong, some models are useful” While the astrology “model” is obviously wrong, it must have been useful to someone at sometime for it to have gained such a popularity. Like the “flat earth model” is actually extremely useful if you don’t intend (can’t) travel significant distances - gives you a coordinate system, maps and ways to predict where you’re going to be tomorrow if you tra…

Yeah, in the end ask about your star sign is as consequential as asking which team is your favourite.

It can be a fun conversation starter, but if you make your life out of that, then it gets ridiculous

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#186

Post by read_if_gay_ » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:40 AM UTC

zen_1 wrote: post #135

permo-w wrote: post #14

I think the easy way to look at this is that a certain segment of society will always want to believe in something beyond the observable world with the decline of organised religion amongst Western Europeans, astrology is one way they fill that void if astrology doesn't float your boat, there's always witchcraft and tarot, or crystals and alternative medicine. or if you're less inclined towards new-age horse you can…

God is dead, and his faithful have replaced him with shiny trinkets and wafty nonsense. Fitting.

it also fits the smug atheist stereotype that you seem to believe you’re above it all

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#187

Post by idoubtit » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:41 AM UTC

anon-3988 wrote: post #155

keiferski wrote: post #56

One of my favorite philosophy books is A Secular Age by Charles Taylor. It has a lot of interesting ideas, but a key one is that the “subtraction thesis” of secularity is wrong. By this, he means the narrative that secular society today simply “subtracted” religious beliefs and behaviors of yesteryear. Instead, these things have just morphed into different forms, with astrology being a prime example. It can be unders…

This is why I think that it is perhaps beneficial to not completely remove religion, but replace it with something that is more aligned to the 21st century. Let's be honest, humans are very flawed and prone to succumb to religious thinking; regardless of how smart/dumb you are. Superstitious thinking can arise from simple day to day observation. So it is much better to fill in the void with something dull like "do go…

What's the point if this mysticism doesn't make "better" people than any random superstition or religion? I fear it's more dangerous than most basic superstitions.

I mean, these "self-introspection, consciousness-obsessed cultures like Hindu and Buddhism" are a source of hatred and violence. The Hindu majority is India is on this brutal trend. And in Burma-Birmania-Myanmar, the Buddhist population was almost unanimous in supporting the discrimination against muslims and the ethnic cleansing of Rohingya. People feel they belong to a religion and that those who do not are unenlightened strangers. The phenomena is well known and studied: religion leads to intolerance.

Astrology is stupid, but at least it does not create that feeling of community, so it won't spread intolerance and xenophobia.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#188

Post by YurgenJurgensen » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

onecommentman wrote: post #144

somedude895 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> half my female friends and all my gay friends love astrology That's about exactly my experience. Half my female friends (and about as many on dating platforms), and about three in four of my gay friends. Not a single straight guy ever talks to me about star signs.

In the 1970s many straight guys were “into” (natal) astrology, as evidenced by the classic pickup line “Hey babe, what’s your sign?” Any less scientific than “Hey babe, what’s your Meyers-Briggs type?”? Astrology got me out of an intro to stats final. You could write a paper using stats in lieu of the final, if your grades were high enough. I got a list of DOB and declared majors for each UGs from the University, hyp…

If all your sample came from the same country (and to a lesser extent, hemisphere), what you're really measuring with "star sign" is "age upon entry into the school system".

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#189

Post by goku12 » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:47 AM UTC

mistercheph wrote: post #157

I don’t understand why people would be flocking to bunk like astrology in a day and age when we have the evidence and tools to improve mental health using psychotherapy, seratonin reuptake inhibitors, and lithium.

Many believe that astrology is real and scientific - at least where there are professional astrologers. Astrologers often make predictions that are either too ambiguous or based on observations of the subject. This often leads to confirmation bias in the believers who start interpreting their life events based on these predictions. That leads them to believe that astrology may have solutions (yes - astrologer prescribe solutions too, where I'm from) to problems that actually require psychiatric treatment.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#190

Post by mediascreen » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:50 AM UTC

za3faran wrote: post #143

andsoitis wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people well versed in the religion don't actually make any such claims What is a good example?

As a Muslim, I've seen Dawkins make very basic and laughably incorrect claims about Islam. It clearly shows he has extremely shallow knowledge about what he claims to criticize. Niel DeGrasse Tyson is also guilty of the same. Here's a short clip of Dr. Sami Ameri, a published author and expert, discussing but one of Dawkin's fallacies in his book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNpvZN76zU

Ok, I just suffered through the 13 minutes of nonsens from this "expert".

One problem is that he doesn't understand what he is arguing against. Dawkins doesn't argue that, because people tend to have similar beliefs as those around them, he has disproved those beliefs. He just uses it to illustrate the close minded way some people take the supremacy of their particular religion for granted. The question "What if you are wrong?" comes with a lot of assumptions.

It's also laughable for an expert (for a number of reasons) to claim that C.S. Lewis has disproved atheism.