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Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

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Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#181
post #171
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is from 2017, yet reports number from 2013. In 2017, the total provisioning was 28~Bn€. Also French reactor are still working (and producing returns), as opposed to German reactors. If you focus on dismantling costs, the example of Maine Yankee [1]: is way less dramatic: "In January 2002 Maine Yankee put the total decommissioning cost at $635 million." The number provided for UK reactors is ludicrous comp…

The numbers are from the respective national nuclear authorities. Also, as of 2019, the ongoing cost of securing spent fuel at Maine Yankee is about $10M per year. At what point does the spent fuel storage there age out and need replacement?

> The numbers are from the respective national nuclear authorities.

And, when it comes to France, the author chose to use 4 year-old numbers.

> At what point does the spent fuel storage there age out and need replacement?

As I said, France doesn't plan to store its spent fuel in dry casks. The current plan is to store it in a deep-storage facility similar to Onkalo.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to https://www.ad.nl/economie/duur-en-gevaarlijk-elke-kerncentr... (translated with Google): > "The leading German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) in Berlin investigated whether new nuclear power plants can indeed contribute to a clean(er) economy. The answer is negative: all 674 nuclear power plants that were built worldwide between 1951 and 2017 were built with substantial government subsidies. With…

Of all the things the government can and does subsidize, cheap electricity seems like a pretty good one, especially if it's clean. I suppose that does lead to sillyness like bitcoin farms though.

It's not an argument against government subsidies, it's just looking at the economic viability of nuclear power relative to other options.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#183

> Many different units are used to discuss large quantities of energy. The graph above uses “quads”, or quadrillion (10^15) British Thermal Units. The SI unit of energy is the joule, and a comparable quantity is the exajoule (EJ), Why use “quads” instead of exajoules? I really don’t understand the use of non-SI units in cases like this, it seems like pointless obscurantism. Using something like terawatt-hours, well t…

I agree it’s annoying. I think it comes from historically defining large energy sources such as gas formations in BTU.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#184
post #131

After 70 years of trying we haven't built an economic traditional nuclear reactor. Even less a breeder. It is like saying we have infinite fossil fuels because we can use renewables to create it from water and air. The interesting part of the conversation is the efficient allocation of money and people. In that conversation nuclear power never materialized.

The French managed to. I guess they have super-human engineering prowess. The trick is that they keep building the same obsolete US-based design instead of re-inventing the entire thing from scratch for each plant. Imagine how much more accessible computers would be if you could just copy the operating system from one "printed" circuit board to another, instead of hand-wiring all the transistors, then hand coding pro…

> The trick is that they keep building the same obsolete US-based design

Wikipedia has a list of nuclear reactors in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Fran...

According to the list, most power plants came online in the 1980s, so it doesn't sound like they "keep building" more of them. The most recent ones, Civaux and Chooz-B, came online in 2000. Flamanville appears to be incorrectly stated as having came online in 2020. Clicking the link, you see that its 2 reactors came online in 1986 and 1987, and as for the third one -- "as of 2020 the project is more than five times over budget and years behind schedule. Various safety problems have been raised, including weakness in the steel used in the reactor. In July 2019, further delays were announced, pushing back the commercial introduction date to the end of 2022. In January 2022, more delays were announced, with fuel loading continuing until mid-2023, and again in December 2022, delaying fuel loading to early 2024."

All of the nuclear reactors in France were built by previous generations.

As an aside, I'm pro- wind, hydro, geothermal, solar, and nuclear. (I'm also very pro-smart-design which obviates the need for created energy.) However I only really see nuclear proponents (and those of fossil fuels) attacking renewables. And I only really see fossil fuel and nuclear proponents making widespread demonstrably false statements. My rooftop solar is producing a big yearly surplus, supplying my neighbors with energy for their AC etc. I think nuclear proponents who say that nuclear is so cheap and so easy should prove it by building their own nuclear reactors and make tons of money. Go ahead, just do it. Stop talking and do it.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#185
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear technology is safe enough, and the storage of the waste is non-issue: the amount of waste produced thorough last 80 years since we first split atom would fit in a single storage facility of the size of the football stadium. If we want to move away from fossil fuels then the nuclear is our best bet, solar and wind are just impractical toys.

> Nuclear technology is safe enough "enough" is a point of view, is your, so ok for you, not enough for me. Fukushima was not enough safe, but again, for me. And there are many others "not enough" situations others than 3 famous. > storage of the waste is non-issue.. To me, is not a volumetric problem, but for time ad long term safety. At fukushima disposing of the contaminated water is still a big problem now, imagi…

> At fukushima disposing of the contaminated water is still a big problem now,

That tritium is a huge nothingburger. They could dump it into the ocean now or store it for a century then dump it; either way it causes no real harm. The amount of tritium they're wringing themselves into knots over is a nonissue.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#186
post #17

Maybe, but the heat added to earth has to be radiated away from earth. We have never added energy from matter at this scale before. Same for fusion.

THIS! People seem to forget basic physics sometimes. Any source of free, unlimited "clean" energy would be an environmental catastrophe because energy used is released into the atmosphere as heat. We need sources that *capture* energy already in the environment, like solar, wind and similar.

If that was actually a problem you could use geoengineering to make the planet more reflective overall, letting you use more nuclear power.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#187
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French managed to. I guess they have super-human engineering prowess. The trick is that they keep building the same obsolete US-based design instead of re-inventing the entire thing from scratch for each plant. Imagine how much more accessible computers would be if you could just copy the operating system from one "printed" circuit board to another, instead of hand-wiring all the transistors, then hand coding pro…

According to https://www.ad.nl/economie/duur-en-gevaarlijk-elke-kerncentr... (translated with Google): > "The leading German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) in Berlin investigated whether new nuclear power plants can indeed contribute to a clean(er) economy. The answer is negative: all 674 nuclear power plants that were built worldwide between 1951 and 2017 were built with substantial government subsidies. With…

I mean, how do you even compare that to the “subsidy” that petroleum gets from western foreign policy?

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#188
post #23
post #17

Maybe, but the heat added to earth has to be radiated away from earth. We have never added energy from matter at this scale before. Same for fusion.

You really should look up the daily energy reaching the earth's surface from sunlight and compare that to annual total energy use by humans. The vast majority of daily solar energy is radiated away already and it dwarfs human energy consumption. Climate change is a result of human activity adding more insulation (via C02, methane, increased water vapor) to the atmosphere and trapping more of the energy from the sun t…

AFAICT, you are probably wrong. Here is some points as to why:

> daily energy reaching the earth's surface from sunlight

... which is exactly the same as the amount of energy radiating off, in a state of equilibrium. But here comes the problem, if we add heat, e.g. from fission, we are not in an equilibrium anymore, are we?

Skeptics of anthropogenic climate change make that claim all the time: Absolute numbers are huge, so they do comparisons like

- 99.998% if Carbon does not take part in Carbon Cycle, or

- heat radiation from the sun is more than X by a scale of Y.

But in balance, so any addition without compensation can compound to be fatal to human life on earth.

After increasing the temperature by storing energy, then radiation off the surface and air layers will increase. But the heat build up is strongest at ground level, yet radiating to space is hardest from that layer. So the effectiveness of heat dispersal in a layered, in-vacuum geoid is not ideal.

> Not only[addition by me] by humans adding more heat under the existing blankets.

Volker Quaschning hat an article, in german, on that. A comparable, unfavourable look on heat introduction instead for a post-co2 energy generation, was also cited in minkorrekt podcast (german, too).

But that that is a small factor, too. I did back of the envelope calculation, and - if every of the 8 billion humans increases their consumption to western standards, - their energy from unlimited fusion or unlimited fission, earth still boils.

It might be 2-5 % of the effect of greenhouse gases, by heat introduction is real and at scale deadly, too.

With water, wind and solar, we have no added heat, since moving gases and fluids evoke heat anyway, which just is not converted to electricity in between. And solar changes the albedo of the place where the panel was placed to a reflectivity of that of a green meadow, which might be worse than some kinds of coating, but usually is better then other roof tiling [citing needed, do IR/VIS-white-painted roofs exist?].

TL;DR: Smaller problem by a few orders of magnitude, but unless dangerous geoengineering takes place[1], still unsustainably cooks mankind.

[1]: Please don't. IPCC report says "keep the idea of geoengineering out of media, for it is not a solution but pandora's jar"

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to https://www.ad.nl/economie/duur-en-gevaarlijk-elke-kerncentr... (translated with Google): > "The leading German Institute for Economic Research (DIW) in Berlin investigated whether new nuclear power plants can indeed contribute to a clean(er) economy. The answer is negative: all 674 nuclear power plants that were built worldwide between 1951 and 2017 were built with substantial government subsidies. With…

I mean, how do you even compare that to the “subsidy” that petroleum gets from western foreign policy?

Why would you?

It's not about subsidies for nuclear vs. fossil.

It's about nuclear vs. renewables, and renewables look like a much better investment these days (and years) considering the budget explosions of recent nuclear projects.

Re: Nuclear fission fuel is inexhaustible (2022)

#190
post #37

Nuclear is the only optimistic energy solution—I.e. one that could enable continually increasing human prosperity, rather than rationing. Forget simply replacing today’s energy generation. That’s sad. What does the future look like when we have 10 times as energy available? Moreover, technology that will “level up” civilization is almost certainly going to be an outgrowth of nuclear development, or something similarl…

After having read the IPCC report, no. A mix of energy is a very viable solution. And if states would not cater to the needs of the nuclear industry, we would have zero plants right now because the price of electricity was never high enough to get the plants insured. Which might change if the price for power climbs, but with renewables on the rise, a limit to that rise or even decline is to be expected.

And for some reason, mainstream social media loves nuclear, so I do question if there is a bias for a technology that every spacefaring state, except for india and china (AFAICT?), has botched at some catastrophic event so far.

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