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Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

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Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#181
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term 'Occupied' is often used loosely, even in Israel itself. The version of 'Occupied' that I'd like to address means: Israel has no claim to any part of the West Bank, is hence illegally present in all parts of it, and should, by international law, withdraw. This version of 'Occupied' is not supported, as far as I know, by either the US, the EU or the UN security council. If you think it is, I'd be interested i…

I'd be interested in seeing some supporting data. United Nations Security Council Resolution 446, adopted on March 22, 1979: ... Affirming once more that the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem. ... Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide s…

I'd probably disagree, and I'll try give you two points to support my position:

POINT ONE

45 years ago, right at the end of the six day war, when Israel took control over the West Bank, the UN security council passed resolution 242, which required:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

At the time, as far as I know, Arab states lobbied heavily to include the world 'all' before 'territories' in point (i), and the wording was not accepted by the Security Council. Furthermore, point (ii) can be (and often has been) read to mean that Israel has serious and legitimate concerns which need to be addressed, and that any withdrawal should only happen within a peace agreement which deals with these legitimate concerns. After all, 20 years earlier, Israel's neighbors tried to destroy it, although Israel claimed sovereignty over solely those territories deemed acceptable by the UN partition plan of 1947.

I think another important point is, that the ambiguity in language of the resolution is by design. You could imagine a much clearer resolution, a resolution with unequivocally deems the occupation illegal and calls for immediate withdrawal. Something which would read like a judge's ideas on what needs to be done, for example, with money a thief robbed from a bank ("give it back right now, no ifs buts and whens").

POINT TWO

Even the resolution you quote, 446, as far as I can tell, does not deal with the illegality of an Israeli military presence in the territories, but with the illegality of the treatment of civillian populations. Check out this part of 446:

2. [The resolution] Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237, 252 and 298...

Now think about this. Twelve years had passed since the 1967 war, and Israel had still not withdrawn from the territories. The above part of the resolution, very conspicuously, is missing a reference to resolution 242, which I discussed above. The UN security council then, twelve years after the 1967 war, with Israel still present in the West Bank, could not agree that 242 was violated, and, as far as I know, has not deemed 242 violated since. If I'm right on this point, it would seem to strongly support the view that 242 (and the UN security council since then) did not, and does not deem Israeli military presence in the entire West Bank illegal, and does not support the view that Israel needs to unilaterally withdraw to 1967 lines, but rather, that Israel still has legitimate concerns which need to be addressed, and rights to at least part of the territory.

Your thoughts?

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#182
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough t…

...the fact that you misuse the term "ethnic cleansing" is annoying enough for me to respond, but this is my last reply to this thread. County X has two populations, the zarbs and the tiwks. The zarbs kill all the tiwks. The zarbs have been ethnically cleansed. You may think this is a trivial point. But you're talking to an international audience, and you're talking about a subject where language is analysed in minut…

No, that's genocide.

Genocide = Killing

Ethnic cleansing = Expulsion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#183
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough t…

>>The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. That would be a normal discussion. This isn't. When I noted the official acceptance and idolising of terror, even murdering sleeping children with a knife, you "countered" by judging a very heterogeneous country by a T-shirt... Just to not let the Israeli side be less than evil -- or better than "your" side in anything. I commented on the insani…

The facts emerged.

You called my posts "lies", "hate", "garbage" and "antisemitism" and made claims backed with no references.

I provided references to Israeli and Jewish sources that any reader can check. Here are some more:

http://www.icahd.org/

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-surviv...

http://www.zochrot.org/en

http://mondoweiss.net/

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#184
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. That would be a normal discussion. This isn't. When I noted the official acceptance and idolising of terror, even murdering sleeping children with a knife, you "countered" by judging a very heterogeneous country by a T-shirt... Just to not let the Israeli side be less than evil -- or better than "your" side in anything. I commented on the insani…

The facts emerged. You called my posts "lies", "hate", "garbage" and "antisemitism" and made claims backed with no references. I provided references to Israeli and Jewish sources that any reader can check. Here are some more: http://www.icahd.org/ http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-surviv... http://www.zochrot.org/en http://mondoweiss.net/

In the GP, I wrote about your claims about a whole country, based on some T-shirts.

That showed you to be a totally non-serious debater, ucee054.

You can't answer that (for the fourth time), so you link to an 86 year old individual and some activist organisations?!

Sad. You can't even admit failure, afterwards. You know the other side is evil.

What now? You'll lie? Here is a link to my first comment. You could maybe delete the parent?

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3637264

Also, your claim that it is possible to debate this subjects with fanatics is proven wrong. QED.

Edit: Since you don't seem to know it, you can find groups having most any opinion in a democracy. So activist web sites is not exactly the best support.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#185
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts emerged. You called my posts "lies", "hate", "garbage" and "antisemitism" and made claims backed with no references. I provided references to Israeli and Jewish sources that any reader can check. Here are some more: http://www.icahd.org/ http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschwitz-surviv... http://www.zochrot.org/en http://mondoweiss.net/

In the GP, I wrote about your claims about a whole country, based on some T-shirts. That showed you to be a totally non-serious debater, ucee054. You can't answer that (for the fourth time), so you link to an 86 year old individual and some activist organisations?! Sad. You can't even admit failure, afterwards. You know the other side is evil. What now? You'll lie? Here is a link to my first comment. You could maybe…

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people".

I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references.

And I never claimed that every Israeli glorified that; in fact I have referenced Israelis who do not. So in fact I have nothing to answer you for.

However, you have to answer for smearing the entire Palestinian side without providing a single reference. Apart from unsubstantiated assertions, the information content of your posts has been nil. I will charitably presume that you meant to condemn Hamas.

In that case, let the facts against Hamas stand. And let the facts stand about the Israeli destruction of Palestinian infrastructure - which was the original topic. Readers are smart enough to make up their own minds.

I don't need to "debate" you point by point, especially since you go off topic and into ad-hominems. And Hacker News doesn't need your permission to cover topics you are uncomfortable about.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#186
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the GP, I wrote about your claims about a whole country, based on some T-shirts. That showed you to be a totally non-serious debater, ucee054. You can't answer that (for the fourth time), so you link to an 86 year old individual and some activist organisations?! Sad. You can't even admit failure, afterwards. You know the other side is evil. What now? You'll lie? Here is a link to my first comment. You could maybe…

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people". I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references. And I never claimed that…

>>condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people"

It is policy/tactics from the Palestinian side to use terror. Not only Hamas. And glorifying murder of children at close range, etc.

You compared that with some T-shirts of individuals...

But you know exactly what I meant.

I stopped reading after you were dishonest in the first paragraph.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#187
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the GP, I wrote about your claims about a whole country, based on some T-shirts. That showed you to be a totally non-serious debater, ucee054. You can't answer that (for the fourth time), so you link to an 86 year old individual and some activist organisations?! Sad. You can't even admit failure, afterwards. You know the other side is evil. What now? You'll lie? Here is a link to my first comment. You could maybe…

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people". I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references. And I never claimed that…

Since you don't seem to understand -- I argue that this is an impossible subject on HN, since the fanatics are just insane.

You support my position when you e.g. quote an 86 year old individual and political activists to "show" your position -- i.e. that the Israeli side is evil and guilty of everything bad that happened.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#188
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people". I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references. And I never claimed that…

>>condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people" It is policy/tactics from the Palestinian side to use terror. Not only Hamas. And glorifying murder of children at close range, etc. You compared that with some T-shirts of individuals... But you know exactly what I meant. I stopped reading after you were dishonest in the first paragraph.

I wrote:

>>But you know exactly what I meant.

In fact, I wrote the same thing one day earlier to ucee054. See second half of this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3638221

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#189
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "the glorifying of bombing/shooting children at close range. (No, it is not the Israeli side that do that.)" Thereby condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people". I pointed out that the Israeli side do do that too. You then claimed it was only "some" Israelis. I pointed out that in fact it was the people pulling the trigger. And I provided references. And I never claimed that…

>>condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people" It is policy/tactics from the Palestinian side to use terror. Not only Hamas. And glorifying murder of children at close range, etc. You compared that with some T-shirts of individuals... But you know exactly what I meant. I stopped reading after you were dishonest in the first paragraph.

Are you trying to claim that all Palestinians are terrorists, and there is not a single innocent person amongst them?

Because I can think of plenty:

It is the policy of Palestinian civil society, including over 170 NGOs, to resist by non-violent means, specifically Boycott Divestment and Sanctions

Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctio...

http://www.bdsmovement.net/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Barghouti

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#190
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>condemning the whole Palestinian "side" on the basis of unspecified "people" It is policy/tactics from the Palestinian side to use terror. Not only Hamas. And glorifying murder of children at close range, etc. You compared that with some T-shirts of individuals... But you know exactly what I meant. I stopped reading after you were dishonest in the first paragraph.

Are you trying to claim that all Palestinians are terrorists, and there is not a single innocent person amongst them? Because I can think of plenty: It is the policy of Palestinian civil society, including over 170 NGOs, to resist by non-violent means, specifically Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctio... http://www.bdsmovement.net/ http://en.wikipedia.or…

>>Are you trying to claim that all Palestinians are terrorists

You assumed I wouldn't check back a few days later, so you could safely add another dishonest strawman attack?

Already in the brother comment to yours, I gave a link to one of my comments which answer this latest strawman. The relevant quote from it:

You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals.

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