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Visual Studio '11' Announced

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Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#181

Post by reddyjr »

algoshift wrote: post #84
oleganza wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key was "try". Xcode is far from being focused on "consumers" and they are trying hard to make a kick-ass IDE. It could be a different definition of "kick-ass" from yours, that's fine. Anyway, I emphasize this again: it's not a question if the actual result is better or worse, it's a complex question because there are thousands of people to evaluate it. The question is why not to experiment more where you have mo…

>It's hard to experiment with a toolbar in Excel because millions of non-computer-geek users Excel is another of my favorite "Why did they do that?" examples. In my opinion, MS absolutely ruined Excel somewhere in the transition from Office 2003 to 2007. If you were a power user with Excel'03 you felt like a total idiot with Excel'07. And, this wasn't a matter of a few buttons here and there. The thing was almost utt…

I couldn't agree more. '07 excel is a major change from '03. I know that they are trying more of a shotgun approach to reach deeper into business but I'm not sure if MS considered how they have alienated the power users. '10 is much more SharePoint focused which I love but SharePoint out of the box is very very limited.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#182

Post by pseale »

bwarp wrote: post #12

Sure it looks all pretty, but have they made it faster and more reliable? VS2010 is just damn slow and falls over on me at least 2-3 times a day which is not acceptable. When you pay for 25 VS2010 premium licenses with MSDN on top of your gold partner allowance, you expect it to work.

I blame XAML, and I'm justified. Some of my teammates here have changed Visual Studio to open XAML files with the XML editor, which means * Visual Studio no longer crashes all the time, and * they lose all XAML intellisense.

I choose to keep the XAML editor for its usefulness, but I run Task Manager (well, Process Explorer) open in the tray at all times to monitor my CPU. If your CPU spikes while you're doing nothing, it's a good sign that Visual Studio may crash.

And as everyone else says, it's rock-solid while doing web development or anything not involving XAML.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#183

Post by ajross »

dkersten wrote: post #171
ajross wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Qt Creator only once or twice, but my memory (and the handful of screenshots I see on google image search) is that it's pretty much the same. An editor rectangle embedded in a bunch of other crap with way too much vertical space above and below it dedicated to things that aren't very important. For reference, my emacs window has the gnome 3 panel and the window manager title bar as waste and that's it. And…

A typical session looks like this [1]. With the documentation window open, it looks like this [2]. The GUI designer looks like this [3] (there's also a second "designer" for Qt Quick). The debugger looks like this [4]. With the compile log/error log/search results window open, it looks like this [5]. About 80% of the time, when I use Qt Creator, especially if I'm not developing a GUI application (in which case I also…

Wait, what? You use four different editors? How can you stand that? How could you be good at any of them? I can barely type into a text field on a web page without pasting from emacs.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#184

Post by MartinCron »

rbanffy wrote: post #176
MartinCron wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think that Microsoft should stick with things that only Microsoft can do , and leave the more cutting-edge innovations to others. Example: the test automation tools into Visual Studio were terrible. Maybe they still are, I don't know, I've stopped using them. nUnit is just better. Their automated refactoring stuff may be OK, but the stuff from JetBrains is much, much better. Don't get me started on Team…

> I personally think that Microsoft should stick with things that only Microsoft can do I'm very curious to see that list...

Microsoft (either explicitly or de-facto) owns the Common Language Runtime, the C# language, Entity Framework, ASP.NET, IIS, Windows OS, Windows Phone OS, XBOX, XBOX live, etc.

An example that I think of is LINQ (not linq-to-sql, mind you, but the language-integrated query stuff). So many things were required to make LINQ viable in the language and the tools, etc. that it doesn't seem realistic to expect an external dev team to throw something like that together. That stands in contrast to things like test automation, which nUnit had already been doing very well for years before Visual Studio tried to get into it.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#185

Post by Shorel »

blackhole wrote: post #18

I'm sorry, but I use color to locate things. This, to me, is a disaster. If this isn't a problem for other people, fine, but it's a problem to me. A better solution would have been to use less color and desaturated tones rather than simply going to full on black and white, which serves only to rob the IDE of potential visual cues. This is like using a cannon to kill a bird. Just because they overcolorized VS2010 for…

In my case I love the dark theme.

A better solution is not to compromise as you propose, a better solution is to make this easily customizable, so both of us can use what we prefer.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#186

Post by Shorel »

jodrellblank wrote: post #133
marshray wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OMG that's insane. Well, our Windows builds may just have to move from 2005 to 2010 and plan to be stuck there for the forseeable future. I was hoping I could use a C++11 compiler for Windows development someday. But it's probably more likely that I'll stop developing for Windows before my company's customers stop running XP.

It is not "insane", XP is three years past the end of official support and only two years until the end of extended support. It's two generations old and possibly three by the time this is released. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycl... XP doesn't run IE9 either, and it came out ages ago. XP is old now.

Customers don't care about 'generations'.

If it works for them, they will not break it.

That said: XP will eventually fade off, but not because of MS official support or extended or whatever. It will fade because end users will eventually stop installing and using it.

Our company only recently started the full roll out of Windows 7, and some computers still require Windows XP (for accounting applications).

These few computers will use Windows XP for the foreseeable future, official support or not.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#187

Post by Shorel »

ax wrote: post #15
brosephius wrote: post #3

Maybe it's just me but I like the "Strong use of color" better. I find it hard to quickly find the tool button I want when they're all monochrome. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but I can't really say the colors in the GUI are my primary distraction when I'm coding...

Quote from the article: In VS 11 we have transitioned to glyph style iconography throughout the product. While we understand that opinions on this new style of iconography may vary, an icon recognition study conducted with 76 participants, 40 existing and 36 new VS users, showed no negative effect in icon recognition rates for either group due to the glyph style transition. In the case of the new VS users they were a…

Just by looking at the images in the article, I do agree with those findings.

(I do compile with VS, but edit my files in SublimeText)

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#188

Post by Shorel »

WayneDB wrote: post #75
bentlegen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither does your singular data point.

How about 200+ comments on the actual article mirroring my exact sentiment?

They use and recognize the 2010 icons.

I don't use either, and I think the 2011 are easier and faster to recognize.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#189

Post by Shorel »

pilif wrote: post #123

Tangentially related: even in the redesign they manage to represent the save action using a floppy disk of all things. I wonder whether that is ever going to change as people forget what floppys were or whether this will just be the canonical icon for save even far into the future when nobody will really know that the icon does indeed have its roots in a long forgotten real-world object.

What other icon do you propose?

(hint: this is much harder than it looks)

(hint 2: ask Susan Kare about it)

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#190

Post by dkersten »

ajross wrote: post #183
dkersten wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical session looks like this [1]. With the documentation window open, it looks like this [2]. The GUI designer looks like this [3] (there's also a second "designer" for Qt Quick). The debugger looks like this [4]. With the compile log/error log/search results window open, it looks like this [5]. About 80% of the time, when I use Qt Creator, especially if I'm not developing a GUI application (in which case I also…

Wait, what? You use four different editors? How can you stand that? How could you be good at any of them? I can barely type into a text field on a web page without pasting from emacs.

I don't use vim on windows. On linux, I use geany for Python code and plain text. Sometimes I also use gedit, but its rare. I use Qt Creator for all Qt development and for non-Qt C++ development if I'm not using linux.

So, most of the time I'm using Qt Creator, some of the time I use geany and the rest I use vim. I probably sholdn't have mentioned gedit as I really don't use it often. I'm planning on dumping geany in favour of vim next time I have to set up my development environment (basically when I get a new laptop, hopefully real soon) as I've been meaning to practice my vim skills for a while now. I was real good at it a few years ago, but then I got a little rusty, which is why I ended up using geany for python and plain text instead...

Actually, to be completely accurate, I use MPLAB too ;) I use it exclusively to program C for the PIC24 microcontrollers. I also used Notepad++ for AVR development a few months ago - if I had been developing on linux, I would have used vim, but I really dislike gvim, so do not use it on windows. I use MPLAB for PIC development because it integrates with the hardware programmer, the remote debugger and saves having to set up paths for a gcc thats not compatible with the one I use for desktop C++ development (though I plan on switching to clang, so I won't have any gcc clashes anymore then).

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