Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive • Hacker News Board

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#181

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:28 PM UTC

lbotos wrote: post #154

tptacek wrote: post #121

Can I add to this one little point, which is a counterintuitive thing you can do to help your local library: Use your local library . During the year we started Matasano our Chicago team spent about 40%-50% of our time working from the Oak Park Public Library, sometimes in meeting rooms we booked, more often at study desks. It was great. The Internet access wasn't amazing but it was totally functional and we could VP…

A friend of Mine just graduated with a Degree in Literature and we talk about the futures of libraries all the time. We often ask what would happen if libraries opened up a small coffee shop/stand inside of them? With enough "marketing" would people go to libraries instead?

The Oak Park library had a coffee shop on the first floor (they didn't run it). Many libraries will allow you to bring coffee in.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#182

Post by notatoad » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:29 PM UTC

anrope wrote: post #34

Maybe I'm just not in a skeptical mood today, but the anecdote in that story points out something that I tend to take for granted. I'm probably not alone, especially here on HN. That is, the fact that some people just really don't understand the most basic concepts of using a computer. And it's not their fault. Your breath seizes in your chest, and you realize you have no idea what to do. You have the form that they…

if you've ever done phone tech support, you know how inept the average person is when it comes to using a computer. directions like "go to google" or "open up the internet and go to www.some-website.com" might as well be a foreign language.

in my experience, i'd estimate that a solid 25% of the population has no idea how to navigate to an arbitrary website. 'the internet' for them consists of the shortcut icons that dell placed on the desktop when they sold the computer, search results, and links that get emailed to them.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#183

Post by melling » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:31 PM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #77

melling wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was about how people need libraries and the funds are being cut.

It's about a lot of things at once. But libraries are the frame for the rest of the piece. As far as I can tell topics covered are: 0) The digital divide. 1) Cutting of Public benefits 2) Cutting of library funds specifically 3) How libraries help gap the digital divide but even with funding are just helping people tread water. 4) That the will, money, and effort to change this situation might not be there.

Like a said, we've spent more than we have for a little too long. Now this type of story doesn't really belong on HN. It's the type where you get downvoted for not having the liberal opinion. Bad news, it's going to get worse. Debt is at 100% of GDP.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#184

Post by nazgulnarsil » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:34 PM UTC

first world poor are not an interesting class of people. There are bigger fish to fry.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#185

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:35 PM UTC

nimblegorilla wrote: post #161

xenophanes wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not "rational economic actors" and do not make all their life choices by "incentives" of this type. Most people will care a lot more about, for example, how they are perceived in the community. So simply making the payers list public would, in some cases, prevent people from playing chicken. Many other solutions are possible, depending on context and culture. It's the job of the businessman to use creativi…

Interesting points, although I respectfully disagree. It's pretty silly to talk about economics if you don't believe in rational economic actors. A public list is a nice theory, but then you would still have people trying to get on the list for the minimum amount possible and hoping that others would donate more to be higher on the list of donors. And what happens when you have 60 local farmers and 40 corporation far…

> Point #2 goes both ways. If the project becomes a net benefit then the dissenters get the benefit and win even though their judgement was incorrect.

Lots of people dissented from the iPhone. Now they benefit. Their benefitting doesn't hurt Apple or prevent Apple from having funded the project themselves and from making plenty of profit. Apple got what they paid for and then some. Other people come out ahead too but that isn't Apple's loss. I don't think some people getting unearned benefit is something to worry about as long as the primary actors are able to make their profit.

The same point could be made more broadly about computers as a whole. Funded by a minority initially, now hugely benefitting many people who didn't take any of the initial risk.

I think there is an asymmetry. I'm far more concerned about people being forced to pay for failed projects or projects requiring capital they more urgently need elsewhere -- being actively, involuntarily hurt -- than I am worried about people gaining broad benefits from projects that benefit the primary actors and risk takers plenty (I actually regard this free stuff to lots of people, which is the result of many projects, as a positive, happy thing, not a negative.)

If you'd like to discuss further, with interesting people and no downvotes, you could come to:

http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list?hl=en

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#186

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:36 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #96

sopooneo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a good idea, though I favor chalk boards. But it would be great. In order to bring it about a lot of difficult management problems would have to be solved. For instance, people are going to be turning tricks in all those separated rooms pretty quickly.

My old university library had private rooms that you could use to get away from the crowds. They were sound proofed, but had a giant glass wall that faced towards the rest of the people. You couldn't turn tricks there unless every onlooker was in approval.

[deleted]

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#187

Post by mickey7 » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:38 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #138

tptacek wrote: post #121

Can I add to this one little point, which is a counterintuitive thing you can do to help your local library: Use your local library . During the year we started Matasano our Chicago team spent about 40%-50% of our time working from the Oak Park Public Library, sometimes in meeting rooms we booked, more often at study desks. It was great. The Internet access wasn't amazing but it was totally functional and we could VP…

I leans heavily toward the libertarian side, but I think libraries are one of the most important social services provided by local governments. Unlike other programs, absolutely everyone can get some direct benefit from the library - no matter what age or income level. Libraries, in my opinion, are a model of what social services should look like: universally beneficial, only practical at the community level, little…

i'd rather not pay for other people's benefits unless the benefit returns to me with reasonable probability and period of time. on one hand i'd like to see libraries turn profit (like 'lite' version of video rental model) or at least be self sufficient. on the other hand i want to enjoy reasonably educated population with easy access to methods for self improvement and economic mobility (both up and down) and a 'safety net' in case of uninsured unforeseen events. there's a balance between socialism and pure libertarian model but its so local and complicated and constantly evolving that i just resign myself toward the purest liberty and self responsibility and say fuck the libraries.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#188

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:40 PM UTC

GFKjunior wrote: post #126

philwelch wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a fanatical Randroid myself in my younger years, and while she may not have gone as far as "never accept handouts", she did go as far as "never expect handouts", and in Rand's system there is explicitly no right or expectation to anything unearned. Rand's opposition to "libertarians" was purely a personal dislike of the people in Rand's time who called themselves libertarians. Most sensible definitions of the w…

I am a fanatical libertarian and Rand is not a major figure in most modern circles. Austrian writers are the go to role models for most libertarians, Hayek, Mises, my favorite is Rothbard.

Are you aware the Rothbard thinks of children as property, and is anti-semitic, among other disgusting positions?

And that Hayek sympathizes, morally, with socialism?

Mises is wonderful but these other people you list with him are really quite different than him.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#189

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:42 PM UTC

leot wrote: post #147

xenophanes wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant persuade people with money to pay for them. You value them. Why don't you pay something voluntarily? And a thousand other yous? Why doesn't Bill Gates throw some money at it if it's a super efficient use of resources? He will, and many other non-poor people will, if they are persuaded it's a better use of their resources than Greenpeace, Oxfam, malaria medicine for Africa, clean water for Africa, and so on. I…

Is it really so hard for you to imagine prisoners dilemmas and tragedies of the commons? I'm willing to pay $1 for a public good if everyone else pays $1. But it is utterly irrational for me to pay voluntarily for this public good, for at least two reasons: 1) since most people won't be paying for it, if I want it I'll have to pay much more, and 2) whether or not it exists is entirely independent of my actions anyway…

> In order for fundamentalist libertarianism to work it will need to come up with a solution to the free-rider problem. Got one?

Yes: http://fallibleideas.com/public-goods

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#190

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 11:44 PM UTC

benwerd wrote: post #8

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

Without wanting to get into a political debate (although I'm happy to do that off-site), I see this as baseline infrastructure: part of the solid platform underlying a healthy economy. I do see it as government's job to provide that.

If you want to discuss offsite, please join us at:

http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list?hl=en