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Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

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Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#181
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs them because there are too few unique syllables in Mandarin. I'm sure a linguist can provide the proper terminology, but there are only around 400 unique sounds in Mandarin, ignoring tones. Even adding five tones still only increases this to ~1500 (not all are used). Compare this to English, where estimates are in the 10-15k range. There are therefore an enormous number of homophones in Mandarin, which makes…

There are language with even smaller sets of unique sounds that do not have tones like Hawaiian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_phonology There are many common homophones in English that are distinguished by context. Conversation tends to have a lot of context. As a Mandarin speaker, I've never really experienced this context problem. You can make up some artificial examples in English and Chinese but they do…

People simply have a LOT of romanticized bullshit views built around Chinese characters, or the relative difficulty of different ways of writing because they're fluent in the language and have spent thousands of hours immersed in a sinograph-based writing system. Of course a different writing system is difficult to read even if it's ultimately much easier to learn, you have no practice! It's like writing English in Latin script vs. writing it in runes, both work fine, but we're practiced on recognizing words in Latin script. ᛖᛚᛞᛖᚱ ᚠᚢᚦᚨᚱᚲ, ᚾᛟᛏ ᛋᛟ ᛗᚢᚲᚺ.

Vietnamese is written in alphabet without issue. The Dungan people of Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan even write their Mandarin-descended language with the Cyrillic script without any tone markings at all - the tones are supplied in a dictionary, but that's it. It works.

Most of the homophones etc. stuff come from people having decided that sinographs are good and then coming up with justifications for keeping them, not really an actual analysis whether Sinitic languages or Japanese would work without. This is a Chinese dictionary: https://imgur.com/a/rdxVh9i

> Mandarin can be written phonetically perfectly fine.

To reinforce this to the readers: https://www.pinyin.info/readings/pinyin_riji_duanwen.html

The author is a native Mandarin speaker who specifically requested that her work not be rendered in sinographs. It should be standard Pinyin orthography except that the author writes 'de' as 'd'.

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#182
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are language with even smaller sets of unique sounds that do not have tones like Hawaiian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_phonology There are many common homophones in English that are distinguished by context. Conversation tends to have a lot of context. As a Mandarin speaker, I've never really experienced this context problem. You can make up some artificial examples in English and Chinese but they do…

I'm surprised you've never experienced this. Even names often require an explanation, because the pronunciation is insufficient to convey which words (i.e. characters) are used. >Mandarin can be written phonetically perfectly fine It can, and I use hanyu pinyin daily, but my point is that given the small space of possible sounds, it often has a great deal of ambiguity, and is mentally taxing to read. Have you ever tr…

> They are still around because they are essential to the written language.

This argument used to be made in Korea, yet the country seems to have transitioned to alphabetic writing without issue. A lot of the tax of reading phonetic scripts of Chinese or Japanese is that fluent speakers are simply not at all used to it, even if they can read it.

For example:

ᚦᛁᛋ ᚨᚱᚷᚢᛗᛖᚾᛏ ᚢᛋᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᛒᛖ ᛗᚨᛞᛖ ᛁᚾ ᚲᛟᚱᛖᚨ, ᛃᛖᛏ ᚦᛖ ᚲᛟᚢᚾᛏᚱᛃ ᛋᛖᛖᛗᛋ ᛏᛟ ᚺᚨᚹᛖ ᛏᚱᚨᚾᛋᛁᛏᛁᛟᚾᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᚨᛚᛈᚺᚨᛒᛖᛏᛁᚲ ᚹᚱᛁᛏᛁᛝ ᚹᛁᚦᛟᚢᛏ ᛁᛋᛋᚢᛖ. ᚨ ᛚᛟᛏ ᛟᚠ ᚦᛖ ᛏᚨᚲᛋ ᛟᚠ ᚱᛖᚨᛞᛁᛝ ᛈᚺᛟᚾᛖᛏᛁᚲ ᛋᚲᚱᛁᛈᛏᛋ ᛟᚠ ᚲᚺᛁᚾᛖᛋᛖ ᛟᚱ ᛃᚨᛈᚨᚾᛖᛋᛖ ᛁᛋ ᚦᚨᛏ ᚠᛚᚢᛖᚾᛏ ᛋᛈᛖᚨᚲᛖᚱᛋ ᚨᚱᛖ ᛋᛁᛗᛈᛚᛃ ᚾᛟᛏ ᚨᛏ ᚨᛚᛚ ᚢᛋᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᛁᛏ, ᛖᚹᛖᚾ ᛁᚠ ᚦᛖᛃ ᚲᚨᚾ ᚱᛖᚨᛞ ᛁᛏ.

Same normal English, but Elder Futhark as the script. If you grew up reading that you'd read without issue. Now? It's a pain.

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true in a strict sense; Standard Japanese has a pitch accent that has a "culminative" pitch countour over a word. Culminativity means that there is a single point of prominence at maximum. In Japanese, this gets realised as a drop in the pitch. (In variants of Japanese, there are more elaborare systems.) Tone systems are different in the sense that each syllable has it's own countour. (Of course, when rea…

Disclosure: I am an expert in Japanese phonology, especially in pitch accent. +9000. Please post more!

Not sure what to post, but here are four interesting tidbits about Japanese pitch accent:

1) "Culminativity" is actually considered the most helpful functionality of the pitch accent. It helps making sense of word boundaries, as there can be only one prominent syllable per word. In spoken word of any language, there are no "spaces" (there are no spaces in written Japanese either, though), so languages need to provide accommodations for aural parsing strategies.

2) The other functionality provided by the pitch accent is distinctiveness, which means that there are some homonyms (similar-sounding words), that are only differentiated by the pitch accent. However, that is only a secondary functionality. In Mandarin Chinese, tones play a lot more important role for making sense of the meaning of the word. In Japanese, they play a role, but not a significant one. (There are some hundreds of minimal pair words that differ only by the pitch accent pattern, but as many regional dialects also have slightly different accent patterns, clearly 100% nailing the pattern isn't required for communication, as long as the general principles (such as one drop per word) are followed.)

3) Japanese is said to be an "isochronic" language, which means it has (or at least, is perceived to have) a simple integer-based rythm. For example, Haiku, a famous genre of Japanese poetry is based on these rythms, unit of which is called haku (拍) in Japanese or mora in Latin/English. In context of poetry metrics, mora is often misrepresented as a "syllable", but actually, there are uni- and bimoraic (and rarely, trimoraic) syllables in Japanese. An example: 2-mora "ma-to" means a target (in archery etc). 3-mora "ma-t-to" means a "mat/carpet". 3-mora "ma-n-to" means a cloak. 3-mora "ma-to-o" meas "let's wait". 3-mora "ma-to-n" means "mutton meat". 4-mora "ma-t-to-o" means "proper/straight". But every one of these are two-syllable words!

4) The rythm of Japanese speech is not concerned with the pitch accent prominence, unlike stress in English, which tends to make stressed syllables longer and louder (and more defined in vowel quality). Indeed, it is often said that "syllables" are an irrelevant concept for Japanese. However, phonologically that isn't true at all. The rythm of Japanese is indeed dependent mostly on moras, but the pitch accent patterns, where the prominent drop of pitch tends to happen, is highly dependent on syllable structure. It never happens on "weak" morae, which are called the "coda" or tail of the syllable. It always happens on the start of a syllable.

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#184
post #131
post #31

this is awesome. thanks for sharing. there is a wealth of resources for learning mandarin but only a smattering for cantonese. two favorites: 1. web dictionary http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/scripts/wordsearch.php?leve... 2. iOS dictionary that is free and comprehensive, also covers mandarin: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pleco-chinese-dictionary/id341... unaffiliated with either company, just a longtime user. othe…

Do you mind sharing why are you learning cantonese?

our family grew up with cantonese as the second language. my mom is from hong kong and my dad from the southern part of china.

unfortunately, i failed to cherish this opportunity and spoke english predominantly as a child, leaving me with heavily-accented and vocabulary-limited cantonese.

i have spent an inordinate amount of time repairing these deficiencies and learning mandarin as well.

a little more self-awareness and foresight as a teenager could have saved me years of learning as an adult.

on the upside, self-learning has yielded insights into chinese language and culture, learning, and accents. unsure if these other perspectives are worth the extra time and effort, though. :)

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The annnoying part in written thai is thattherearenospacesbetweenwords.

Do any ideographic languages use spaces? I'm used to it in Asian languages but it still does my head in when I try to read older Latin documents.

With the kind of mixed script used in Japan and that used to be used in Korea, they're not exactly necessary (still useful, but not necessary). Neither language uses prefixes much, so a sinograph is a pretty reliable indicator of the beginning of a word, followed by the inflection written out in a phonetic script like hiragana or hangeul. In Japanese's case, a switch from hiragana to katakana also indicates a word boundary and highlights that the word's likely a nonsinitic loan or the name of a plant or animal species or other technical term.

Say, for example:

"Korean people eat kimchi"

In Japanese/Korean, the structure would be:

Korean-person-topic marker-kimchi-object marker-eat-present tense.

In Japanese mixed script, that looks like:

韓国人はキムチを食べます。and would be read as "kankokujinwa kimuchiwo tabemasu".

Splitting it with spaces:

韓国人は キムチを 食べます。

The heftier kanji denoting "Korean person" and at the start of "eat" should be clear even to the untrained eye, while people who've studied the language can easily tell that キムチ is "kimuchi" written in katakana. The sentence is pretty easy to parse without spaces, at the cost of using one of the most insane writing systems in the world.

Now, what if we wrote the entire thing in hiragana instead?

かんこくじんはきむちをたべます。

... yyeaahh. Spaces. Please.

かんこくじんは きむちを たべます。There, much better, though almost no one fluent in Japanese has practice reading stuff like that.

In Korean, without spaces we'd have:

한국사람들은김치를먹어요. Again, similar problems. Korea has adopted spaces now that they don't use sinographs, so we'd have:

한국 사람들은 김치를 먹어요. (han'guk sa'ram'deul'eun kim'chi'reul mog'o'yo)

If we wrote "Korean person" with the same Sinitic loans in the Japanese sentence, we might get:

한국인들은 김치를 먹어요. (han'gug'in'deul'eun kim'chi'reul mog'o'yo)

Spaces clearly do help.

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm after is a resource for learning mandarin of you're already a speaker of Cantonese. I've found it surprisingly hard to find a summary of the differences. By contrast learning German from Danish seemed to have some bits that made it clear reasonably fast.

If you can read hanzi, can't you just start reading whatever you want in Mandarin? Obviously starting with something easy and then moving on to harder and harder texts, of course. And can't you just start watching TV shows and movies in Mandarin? It should be a lot easier than for us mortals who start out without knowing any Sinitic languages. We have to work hard just to handle the tones and the near total lack of s…

Yeah I'm more looking for shortcuts. With German it was really just a matter of seeing a bit of it, and then boom I could read the newspaper with no problem.

Cantonese and Mandarin weirdly seem to have wandered further from each other than Danish and German. At least for me, but that may also be lack of exposure.

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an English native speaker who learned Mandarin, I really didn't find the lack of spaces harmful to learning the language. Since each character represents a syllable, rather than a specific sound, and the written language is essentially not phonetic, reading the characters is an entirely different experience. OTOH, you have English and German and others that frequently use compound words, and the use of spaces beco…

> OTOH, you have English and German and others that frequently use compound words, and the use of spaces becomes really important to understanding the writing. Schleifmaschinenverleih would like to have a word with you. This is parsed as Schleif-Maschinen-Verleih. Verleih means a rental company. The middle one is machine, and the first one I find both sanding and whetting as translations, not sure which one it is. So…

To clarify, I'm not saying that compound words are difficult to parse due to a lack of spaces. I'm saying that without any spaces in a sentence at all, it's harder to differentiate between compound and non-compound words.

blueberry vs. blue berry

stand up vs. standup

online vs. on line (northeast US term for queueing)

cartwheel vs. cart wheel

Stick compound words in a sentence that doesn't have any spaces at all, and you either have to pause to grok context, or context won't even help you (blue berry vs blueberry). At least German capitalizes all of its nouns, which would certainly help.

Compare this with Chinese, Korean, Japanese or other similar languages that don't use spaces at all (except perhaps after punctuation).

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#188

This wouldn't work in the same way in Japanese because characters can have different readings depending on the context. Could that be overcome with font ligatures? Still, even if we could overcome that massively complex task, some groups of characters (i.e. the aforementioned context) can still have multiple ways of reading them.

The proper solution for Japanese is a time machine to the 1940s and instituting a proper script reform instead of the touyou kanji list and Shinjitai simplifications. :)

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#189
I use a similar one for Mandarin. Here's a cool little chrome extension I built to force the use of the font for all Hanzi/Han characters in a webpage.

```// This script changes the font of all Mandarin character on a page.

const url = chrome.runtime.getURL('font/Hanzi-Pinyin-Font.top.ttf');

const fontFace = ` @font-face { font-family: ZhongwenFont; src: url(${url}) } `;

window.onload = function () { const styleSheet = document.createElement("style"); styleSheet.innerHTML = fontFace document.head.appendChild(styleSheet); // For static pages, handle all elements: document.body.querySelectorAll("").forEach(handleElement); // support for dynamic pages // For dynamic apps, like Twitter, observe all DOM mutations henceforth within document body: addMutationObserver();

}

function handleText(textNode) { // Regular expression to match all Chinese characters const regex = /[\p{Script=Han}]+/gu; if (regex.test(textNode.nodeValue)) { const { style } = textNode.parentElement; style.fontFamily = 'ZhongwenFont'; style.fontSize = "large" } }

function addMutationObserver() { const observer = new MutationObserver(function (mutations) { mutations.forEach(function (mutation) { mutation.target.querySelectorAll("").forEach(handleElement); }); }); observer.observe(document.body, { subtree: true, childList: true }); }

function handleElement(e) { e.childNodes.forEach((child) => { if (child && !isUserInput(child) && child.nodeName === "#text") { handleText(child); } }); }

// Some helper functions used by the code above: function isUserInput(node) { const tagName = node.tagName ? node.tagName.toLowerCase() : ""; return ( tagName == "input" || tagName == "textarea" || isInsideContentEditable(node) ); }

function isInsideContentEditable(node) { while (node.parentNode) { if (node.contentEditable === "true") { return true; } node = node.parentNode; } return false; }```

Re: Cantonese Font with Pronunciation

#190
post #31

this is awesome. thanks for sharing. there is a wealth of resources for learning mandarin but only a smattering for cantonese. two favorites: 1. web dictionary http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/scripts/wordsearch.php?leve... 2. iOS dictionary that is free and comprehensive, also covers mandarin: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pleco-chinese-dictionary/id341... unaffiliated with either company, just a longtime user. othe…

What I'm after is a resource for learning mandarin of you're already a speaker of Cantonese. I've found it surprisingly hard to find a summary of the differences. By contrast learning German from Danish seemed to have some bits that made it clear reasonably fast.

I'm not affiliated nor do I personally have any experience with this service, but have heard good things about the Canto To Mando Blueprint: https://www.thecmblueprint.com/
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