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End-of-Life Dreams

commonwealmagazine.org

181–190 of 195 posts

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#181
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in biotech and as I am sure you know, it is the field where unknown phenomena are the expected norms. So yes, I made peace with not being able to know everything a long time ago. But by the same virtue, it means I can't dismiss anything unless I have concrete evidence against it. It is better to leave rooms for doubts rather than settling with a half-answer and consider it a solved matter. To do so would mean…

There's a difference between not knowing everything and inventing rather specific alternatives which you declare are valid because "we don't know everything". Not knowing means not knowing . Not "well we don't know so maybe it's...".

It's also not "we don't know so maybe no black swans exist".

Knowing and belief are different things too. I don't know for a fact that the tree outside my house is still there when I'm not looking at it, but I believe it will be.

These discussions get muddy quickly precisely because sometimes you're arguing thinking that you know what the other person believes, which is a bit of an arrogant assumption, and then you're off having an argument with a specter of your own making.

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#182

I am as irreverent as you can probably get, in fact, if I have to say what I really think about religions in general, I am probably a blasphemer in every sense of the word. Yet I believe this article. Because even I had a spiritual experience too real for me to discredit or brush aside, and I meant it not just mentally but physically too. It didn't completely change my views about religions, but it did soften my stan…

It is nothing. It is always nothing. The "spiritual", the "religion" is always about hiding the politics in the mystery. We didn't know we were on a planet and we believed meretricious speculators rambling on and on about the "genesis" of the sun, the moon, and the earth. We didn't know why and how were there so many kinds of animals around us and we listened to stories. Nowadays we don't know how the brain encodes m…

Your opinion is based entirely on the assumption of materialism.

We used to think the earth was the center of the universe, we learned it's not.

We used to think the earth was the center of the solar system, we learned it's not.

We now think that the brain is the center of consciousness.

The trend is usually in breaking away from the idea that we're special, not in reaffirming what we already assume.

In this case, the assumption is that our brains are special. The breaking away would be understanding that the brain is not the center of consciousness, but that we're a part of something bigger, something which does not look like what we assume or imagine.

That means that future knowledge will likely not look like it is reaffirming any particular religion, not will it look like it is reaffirming the current popular fundamentalist materialist view.

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But sure, cling to dusty metaphysics while sending messages at light speed. I do not understand what you mean by dusty metaphysics. I am guessing you mean religion? I can criticize science without endorsing religion. It is not either or. If that is the case, I believe you read into my comment things I did not say. I already said science is great. At the same time, we hardly know anything. These are orthogonal. We a…

In a funny way, by dusty metaphysics I actually meant the great Swiss philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. In Genealogy of Morals he has quotes such as "Science is not nearly independent…, in every respect it first needs a value-ideal, value-creating power, in whose service it can believe in itself,—science itself never creates values." [1] using the word wissenschaft for science, knowledge-making, translating literally…

We're beyond what he imagined in technology and material possibilities, but not even close to other more human values.

The fact that we are both using this amazing technology of "light speed" information exchange to engage in these discussions fully knowing that most likely nothing will change on the other end, should tell you something about how far we've really come.

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#184
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Atomic nuclei consist of electrically positive protons and electrically neutral neutrons. These are held together by the strongest known fundamental force, called the strong force. The nucleus makes up much less than .01% of the volume of the atom, but typically contains more than 99.9% of the mass of the atom." [1] No need for the wave-particle duality. Not sure where the straw man is. Doesn't Buddhism use "karma"…

Strong recommend: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/863971

No need, I have read David Bentley Hart's sources: Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac the Syrian [1], Maximus the Confessor, Symeon the New Theologian, Gregory Palamas †. Great thinkers, the "fathers", they really did a bang-up job merging Judaism and Greek Neoplatonism. Can't say you can't hear Plotinus' One every time Christians speak of God's Unity 3-in-1 and Filioque [2]. Lev Shestov's classical Athens and Jerusalem is a good summarization of the whole process.

My absolute bang-up theologian is however Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, he/they really took Plotinus to the max: "God is not only the cause of all being, but also of all non-being.", "The Divine Names", Chapter IV, section 7. That Greek ouden, non-being, taken shamelessly from the thoughts of Anaxagoras and Parmenides.

However, all these great Generative Pre-trained Transformer ramblings of the theologians (ChatGPT is the best theologian of all times, it can go on and on, till the gods come home) have nothing to do with the practice of religion. For all the books that I have read and hoarded, all the major religions, and some minor ones, would burn me at the stake, they are very jealous of each other.

The fact of the matter remains: for the past 3-4,000 years, probably as a side effect of humans coming together in such large numbers (5,000 years ago, the city Uruk had 50-80,000 inhabitants, absolutely unimaginable how they lived), this mental parasite, this bug (as in software) of a "Beyond", probably a remnant from the hundreds of thousand of years of searching for food beyond that hill, has plagued everything about us: our behaviour, our mores, our concepts. And in more recent times, it has allowed for the most vile of us to control all of us, from the Borgias to the House of Saud, not forgetting the local pedophile priest.

† I have also read Mr. Hart, of course, his best work is probably his thesis "Beauty, Violence, and Infinity: A Question Concerning Christian Rhetoric", all the core ideas are there: the atemporal fall, the salvation as free for all eschaton.

[1] I particularly remember this quote from Isaac the Syrian: "There will be a time when even the word 'god' will be forgotten". In one of his Ascetical Homilies.

[2] "The One is the absolute principle of all things, the ultimate ground of being, the transcendent source of all existence. It is the beginning and end of all things, the unchanging and eternal reality that underlies all that is mutable and transitory." (Enneads, V.3.1) The Enneads were written around the year 240, 400 years before Maximus the Confessor.

[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CE%B4%CE%AD%C...

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a funny way, by dusty metaphysics I actually meant the great Swiss philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. In Genealogy of Morals he has quotes such as "Science is not nearly independent…, in every respect it first needs a value-ideal, value-creating power, in whose service it can believe in itself,—science itself never creates values." [1] using the word wissenschaft for science, knowledge-making, translating literally…

We're beyond what he imagined in technology and material possibilities, but not even close to other more human values. The fact that we are both using this amazing technology of "light speed" information exchange to engage in these discussions fully knowing that most likely nothing will change on the other end, should tell you something about how far we've really come.

First of all, I am believer that language was not invented for communication, dogs and bees communicate very well with each other and don't speak one word, but that language was invented to speak with and to one's own self. No source for this, just a belief: I first of all speak to clarify thoughts for myself, hence expecting for communication to "update the software" of the other person just seems misguided.

Secondly, we are what we make of ourselves, nothing more, nothing less. We are a "land of laws" or a race to the bottom. José Saramago's fiction "Essay on Lucidity" and "Essay on Blindness" puts it in counterbalance more poetically and at length.

Thirdly, technologically, we still haven't moved one inch towards the tools for wisdom. What do we have now? Books of ancient elders, books of contemporary charismatic thought-leaders, books of law, "words, words, words", as the Danish prince would put it. How about, as dystopian or utopian that might sound, reinforce "do not kill" not with a stone tablet and the fear of consequences, but with a pill. Robert Sapolski [1] comes to mind: how barbaric we will look like for locking a murderer in a cell instead of fixing whatever neuronal pathway goes haywire. Nevertheless, this future will come, maybe not in the next 100 years, who knows, but that's why it is important for there to be a we, the people, collectively sorting things out, choosing our own local and global state, and not a them, the rulers, whomever them are, political leaders, religious figures, charismatic entertainers.

[1] Neuroscience and the Law, https://ir.stthomas.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1147&con...

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is nothing. It is always nothing. The "spiritual", the "religion" is always about hiding the politics in the mystery. We didn't know we were on a planet and we believed meretricious speculators rambling on and on about the "genesis" of the sun, the moon, and the earth. We didn't know why and how were there so many kinds of animals around us and we listened to stories. Nowadays we don't know how the brain encodes m…

Your opinion is based entirely on the assumption of materialism. We used to think the earth was the center of the universe, we learned it's not. We used to think the earth was the center of the solar system, we learned it's not. We now think that the brain is the center of consciousness. The trend is usually in breaking away from the idea that we're special, not in reaffirming what we already assume. In this case, th…

I remember a short quip, perhaps from Marguerite Duras, "all these people speak about materialism, yet they barely know what matter is". I linked below how the atom is mostly empty, here is a chart of the elementary particles with the three generations of matter and anti-matter [1], and here is a hydrogen wave function just because it's beautiful [2]. You tell me to what kind of "materialism" do I belong to. Perhaps I am too "tau-onic", or maybe too "anticharm-ic" (I am the first to say that the particle names are just awful, naming things is hard, naming the constituents of things is impossible).

I have seen people dieing, dear people. I don't care if they went "somewhere", I just care that they are no longer here. And if they were to choose, they would still choose to be here and not go "somewhere", wherever and however it may be. Nevertheless, looking at the facts sober, without any glam or fantasy, they went nowhere, just like when they've fallen asleep a thousand times beforehand. And it is very disingenuous, childish, and hurtful to pretend otherwise.

The brain not being the center of consciousness is just ridiculous. I hope you don't think our feet are the center of consciousness, because we would have then some zombie amputees. But if you believe it to be out there, in the universe, put some glasses of wine in front of you, or whatever alcoholic beverage you fancy, then ask yourself why do you get drunk only after you ingest them (Not condoning alcoholic intake otherwise as mere experiment, for the science).

Our brains are special insofar as they are able to give rise to an agent, as opposed to a rock, just sitting there. If on some distant planet there is also a similar in effects object, then sure, that object is also rather special.

[1] https://www.dfa.unict.it/sites/default/files/images/1280px-S...

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Hydrogen...

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My late grandmother used to see dreams of passed away relatives long before she died, as in decades. She told that she enjoyed having a good chat with them, and that the important part is to politely decline if they want you to follow them for whatever reason, as that would mean passing away. To her all of this was just common sense. Crazy to see it validated in actual research! Thanks for sharing your beautiful stor…

> " My late grandmother used to see dreams of passed away relatives long before she died, as in decades. " I am not a religious person but I can understand that. I am 66 yo and my father and mother are diseased since a long time. Yet sometimes I can feel a presence during day time and I had a few dreams where I discussed briefly with my mother. It's easy to say that as I am shaking that this could be Parkinson's dise…

Your mother was clearly important to you. Maybe you should go see a doctor re the shakes. I'm a recovering programmer who's now a professional musician in his late 30's, but just sayin'

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My late grandmother used to see dreams of passed away relatives long before she died, as in decades. She told that she enjoyed having a good chat with them, and that the important part is to politely decline if they want you to follow them for whatever reason, as that would mean passing away. To her all of this was just common sense. Crazy to see it validated in actual research! Thanks for sharing your beautiful stor…

> Crazy to see it validated in actual research! Well a handful of anecdotes aren't "actual research". Not knocking it off per se, but yes, further research is needed. Also, I couldn't find a link to the empirical work alluded in the piece.

That would've been nice. If Kerr, as described, has had trouble presenting even his quantifiable metrics, polling his hospice patients and using statistics on the responses, to other professionals, I doubt there's a way to get published. Maybe an observation without a question?

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? Kerr has published several papers with data supporting his hypothesis. Your single anecdote doesn't invalidate a statistical pattern.

No. I stopped at the quote and commented, also noticing the "religion" link in the header of the website so started to think that this was some woo woo pseudo-science nonsense. Thanks for the additional information. But also, on that note, I comment to socialize and share my opinions and thoughts. I'm not interested in using an online forum to engage in serious academic study and statistical analysis nor am I going t…

The word “religion” alone is enough to make you stop reading an otherwise excellent and secular article?

It’s funny to remark about pseudoscience when one single word is enough for you to stick your head in the sand and yell about zealots. That’s not really the kind of behavior I’d expect from a self-described scientific thinker :)

Re: End-of-Life Dreams

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " My late grandmother used to see dreams of passed away relatives long before she died, as in decades. " I am not a religious person but I can understand that. I am 66 yo and my father and mother are diseased since a long time. Yet sometimes I can feel a presence during day time and I had a few dreams where I discussed briefly with my mother. It's easy to say that as I am shaking that this could be Parkinson's dise…

Your mother was clearly important to you. Maybe you should go see a doctor re the shakes. I'm a recovering programmer who's now a professional musician in his late 30's, but just sayin'

recovering programmer ?
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