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We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

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Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#181
post #7

If they are listening to feedback, first is that a 30 day timeframe sends the message that "we feel our profit is more important than whatever else you are working on, so much that you should either pay us, or if you cannot afford it, immediately halt your other activities to reduce our costs." None of that builds trust. As someone affected, I'm ok with paying. * I don't like feeling tricked * I don't like feeling he…

I can assure you that Docker is not trying to protect any profits. More like... slow the cash hemorrhage.

how can you "assure" that?

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#182

Previous communication: > If you don't upgrade to a paid subscription, Docker will retain your organization data for 30 days, after which it will be subject to deletion. During that period you will maintain access to any of your public images. New communication: > We’d also like to clarify that public images will only be removed from Docker Hub if their maintainer decides to delete them. We’re sorry that our initial…

(from Docker DevRel team) > Given these statements directly contradict each other Actually... they aren't contradictory. The organization data will be retained for 30 days and is subject to deletion. That data includes the teams, memberships, etc. But, it wasn't clear what we were going to do about the images. Keeping the public images is important as many other images build on top of them. > It feels like they chang…

If you are deleting the organizational data and effectively archiving [1] all the images, keeping only the option for public images to be pulled but not updated... then how will affected maintainers be able to delete their now out of date public images after the 30 day cut-off? You will have to retain enough of the organization data to allow that to happen.

Keeping the public images available in an archived state is okay for specific image references, but questionable for specific image tags and somewhat irresponsible for the `latest` tag. A `latest` tag that cannot be updated is ... worse than no `latest` tag.

Responsible maintainers that are unable to apply for open-source status or otherwise sponsor their usage of organization public repos should be advised to delete their public repos.

Responsible users of public images on Docker Hub need to have a way to determine which images will be affected, and which will continue to be maintained. Archiving the public repos gives an extended grace period, but users will still need to be prepared to notice if they end up using a now unmaintained, archived repo and migrate to alternative image sources.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35188691

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They really think we're idiots!

We have learned that public images are NOT organization data!

With the organization data gone, will there be a way to update the retained images, like security fixes etc? If not, then this could become very dangerous.

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#185

I’m guessing they did this change because the cost of giving a free service isn’t cheap for docker?

The problem runs much deeper than that. Most of what Docker offers is commodity software. You can get docker image hosting from a variety of sources and hosting your own registry isn't that hard. All you need is a docker container and some file storage or bucket. Docker for desktop is nice but there are free alternatives.

Docker registries are included with most cloud services (AWS, Azure, Gcloud, digital ocean) and you can use those to self host as well without too much issues. Github and gitlab offer docker registries as well. As do lots of other companies. Mostly, those services make money from other things than hosting docker images. That's just a low value commodity that they need to offer the really interesting stuff. If you are going to charge people for some expensive kubernetes cluster, they need a place to dump their container images. So you offer that for free. It's just a few GB of storage. It literally is a rounding error on the total bill. It does not matter. Charging for that does not make sense.

That's the problem docker has right now: they need companies to pay them absurd amounts of money for something that is essentially a low value commodity and they don't really have anything with a lot of value that they could charge for instead. And the harder they insist people need to pay, the more they erode their position as a leader in this space (which arguably they lost years ago). While it was free and convenient, people used them. But now that that's no longer the case, people engineer around them. They are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The one asset they still had (people treating them as the de-facto place to park docker containers) is basically being lost. And as soon as that stops, it's going to get harder for them to gain new customers or even retain existing ones.

Contrast that with Github that used to charge for stuff that they now give away for free. I paid for it back in the day. And now I don't. Except Github is making loads of money from companies that outgrow the freemium tier. And they have a steady supply of happy freemium users using their services for free transitioning to valuable paid services. And they get to host the entirety (well close to it) of the software developer population on this planet. It's the largest professional network outside of linkedin. Which of course MS also owns. It would be madness to incentivize users to not use that by charging for it. It's way too valuable for that.

Speaking of MS, they should just buy out Docker. Fire the management. Get rid of their sales department and revitalize docker and dockerhub development and integrate it into github. It's so complementary to Github that it's a no-brainer. And probably investors are getting fed up with the way things are going at docker. I imagine this could be a relatively cheap acquisition for them. This isn't OpenAI, LinkedIn, or Github.

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#186
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(from the Docker DevRel team) "During that period" refers to the 30-day period. During that time, the images are accessible. After the 30-day period, they will still be pull-able, but not able to be updated.

> If you don’t upgrade to a paid subscription, Docker will retain your organization data for 30 days, after which it will be subject to deletion. During that time, you will maintain access to any images in your public repositories, though rate limitations will apply. Specifically (emphasis mine): > During that time, you will maintain access to any images in your public repositories So, the logical conclusion, which l…

[flagged]

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#187
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Actually... they aren't contradictory. They are. Your intent may not have been contradictory, but the messages received by everyone else were contradictory. You should own that if you are serious about doing better. Your intent doesn't really matter in these situations.

That's.... why they are saying it was poor communication.

They did in the OP link. To say now in comments "It's not contradictory" is not owning up to it being bad communication

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#188
post #112

Previous communication: > If you don't upgrade to a paid subscription, Docker will retain your organization data for 30 days, after which it will be subject to deletion. During that period you will maintain access to any of your public images. New communication: > We’d also like to clarify that public images will only be removed from Docker Hub if their maintainer decides to delete them. We’re sorry that our initial…

You are right, it's two different messages. I always am annoyed by how companies apologize for the communication or the confusion arising after the communication. As if we, the public, didn't understand properly or are too dumb to understand what they tried to say. We understood perfectly and the _message_ was dumb, not the communication around the message. It doesn't feel like an honest apology.

Dude: "the message" is "the communication".

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#189

The third sentence in their apology is "This impacted less than 2% of our users." What is that supposed to convey? It feels like a handwave. 'We're sorry we mistreated you, look how small you are to us.'

Also, the 2% of the impacted users might have 50% of _all_ users as a dependency (just throwing out a random number for illustration), so I'm not sure that the "2% users" messaging matters to the recipients of that PR.

Re: We apologize. We did a terrible job announcing the end of Docker Free Teams

#190
post #186
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don’t upgrade to a paid subscription, Docker will retain your organization data for 30 days, after which it will be subject to deletion. During that time, you will maintain access to any images in your public repositories, though rate limitations will apply. Specifically (emphasis mine): > During that time, you will maintain access to any images in your public repositories So, the logical conclusion, which l…

[flagged]

Nah, it's this guy sitting in here trying to tell us how we're supposed to think, that it wasn't their fault we were stupid, that's the issue I have. I don't give a flying FUCK about Docker as a company; whether they live or die matters less to me than when I'll have to pee next.
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