Live data from Hacker News

California cancels salmon fishing season

cbsnews.com

181–190 of 231 posts

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#181
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in EU, the French government just announced that it will "strongly oppose" forbidding deep ocean scrubbing nets in "protected areas" (which are therefore totally unprotected). They look like caricature villains from a comic book or something. Bonkers. For history, here's the criminal, senseless moron, shame on him, shame on them all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtfGFt1c5H8

The Dutch experimented with pulse fishing [0]. This had some good benefits for the sea and didn't seem to negatively impact the fishing industry over here much. It was banned again by the EU, according to some due to lobbying on behalf of other countries that were afraid they'd have to start investing in it too. 0: https://www.wur.nl/en/dossiers/file/pulse-fishing.htm

Someone thought building a giant taser and electrocuting everything on the seabed was a good idea.

https://www.pulsefishing.eu/what-is-pulse-fishing/techniques

If it doesn't destroy the plants too, it probably ~is better for the ecosystem than what it's replacing, but if aliens come and start dragging electrocution nets over human cities to electrocute us all, we won't be able to say we didn't have it coming.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? Why not? How many fish are born every minute?

Overfishing and dwindling fish populations are pretty established facts.

What does that have to do with the number?

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, or up to 5 million caught every minute. Bycatch aside, this number absolutely floors me. There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? I love seafood, but I know the issues with overfishing so I don't eat it often and when I do, I do my best to only eat sustainably caught or farmed fish...but I feel absolutely hopeless seeing numbers like this.

Overfishing is an issue for sure, but the number just speaks to home unfathomably huge the oceans are. Poke around and look up how big wild schools of anchovy can be, or how many krill it takes to feed a whale. And each of those numbers you find are just teensy little blips. The ocean is really big and its teeming with life.

"There are large areas in the middle of the major oceanic basins called the subtropical gyres. These could be considered the deserts of the ocean in that the biomass (total mass of all organisms) density and biodiversity are low. This is because the ocean circulation doesn't replenish the nutrients available in these areas for algae to live off, which are the base of the food-chain.

In general, you tend to find much more biomass and biodiversity closer to the coasts. But you can get hotspots of productivity in other places such as upwelling regions and also near seamounts (shameless plug of my paper on this)."

"People assume, well oceans are massive so fish stocks are massive as well. But if you went hunting for game as a protein source you wouldn't assume it lives at the top of every mountain and bottom of every valley. You know it has a range that confines its distribution and therefore its abundance. You dont go hunting across the vast, empty desert.

Commercial fisheries know this and are squeezing the last bits they can out of the pelagic fish we all expect on the dinner table (tuna, mahi, etc), but as you aptly point out, the majority of fisheries biomass is near the coast. Fish we eat do not come from habitat that covers 70% of the planet, its much closer to https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/imu81a/if_you_p...

https://www.sciencealert.com/there-s-a-desert-in-the-middle-...

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, or up to 5 million caught every minute. Bycatch aside, this number absolutely floors me. There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? I love seafood, but I know the issues with overfishing so I don't eat it often and when I do, I do my best to only eat sustainably caught or farmed fish...but I feel absolutely hopeless seeing numbers like this.

It's not just fish. The sheer number of animals that are slaughtered to produce meat for human consumption is absolutely mind-boggling. In addition to the fish, humans killed 72 billion chickens, 3.3 billion ducks, 1.3 billion pigs, over a half-billion geese, turkeys, rabbits, sheep, and goats (each!), over 300 million cattle, and over 70 million rodents for food in 2019 alone [1]. Animal agriculture overall generate…

Nearly 100% of my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows. They are rotationally grazed and live their whole lives in the outdoors. It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket - ground beef is half the price, steaks are as little as 10%, because all cuts are priced the same. (My dairy comes from another, similar farm, and while it is much better, it is more expensive.) I also went all through the slaughterhouse and no, there's no kids there.

I eat a lot of eggs. 100% of my eggs and the occasional chicken come from my parents, who, with twelve chickens, produce an insane surplus of eggs, letting them eat whatever bugs they find and feeding them scraps.

People will argue this isn't scalable, and maybe it isn't. But the price of my beef suggests it is underutilized at this time. Certainly more rural and semirural people could keep chickens. I would favor this alternative anyway, since industrial-scale food production isn't just inhumane, it produces inferior products that are subject to enormous risks and shocks as producers race to centralize and become more and more efficient. You don't want hyperefficiency in your food supply. Hyperefficiency means fragility.

Massive industrialized agriculture is its own ecological disaster. The farming of corn for ethanol (!!!) and the massive, endless fields of soybeans and canola in the US midwest (foods eaten by almost no American a few decades ago) are permanently destroying the ecology of nearly half the US. It's annihilating topsoil at alarming rates, eradicated huge swaths of natural wildlife, and filled watersheds with massive amounts of fertilizer and pesticides which are then contributing to killing all the fish. You see how we've come full circle.

Do you know what would be great and sustainable for the midwest? Fill the plains with cows. For thousands of years, they were filled with ruminants. The cows must be kept in tightly packed herds to emulate their behavior when predators are present. This will regenerate the topsoil, as that's what formed much of it in the first place, and end the flow of poison into the waterways. I'm not opposed to returning the buffalo instead, if you prefer.

You talk about greenwashing - that's a big part of the push behind veganism. Obviously there's sincere people like you, but there's a lot of money in producing highly processed foods and (soon) artificial meat. Highly processed foods (besides being a health disaster) can be easily produced via "food science" from relatively stable, controllable inputs, which animals are not. They are much easier to scale, which is where the real money comes from when you're selling commodities. Frequently, even when one input does become a problem, it can be replaced with no obvious impact to the consumer.

It's not about taking a holistic look what what we need to do ecologically and environmentally, which would include meat. It's about cash.

> fated to death from birth

Everything born into this world will die. That's nothing special about livestock.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overfishing and dwindling fish populations are pretty established facts.

What does that have to do with the number?

I get that you wanted the original poster to realize that a big number doesn't necessarily mean anything. But we already know it's not sustainable.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

I remember one of my undergrad economics professors going on a rant about how we will never run out of oil or tungsten or whatever because the marginal cost will increase gradually until we find alternative materials. It sounded very intelligent and convincing to me at 18, and sounds downright idiotic to me now.

Indeed, your professor was starting under the assumption that our civilization will not collapse. If you want to know what happens when the resources your civilization is built on run out, you're probably better off asking a historian than an economist.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just fish. The sheer number of animals that are slaughtered to produce meat for human consumption is absolutely mind-boggling. In addition to the fish, humans killed 72 billion chickens, 3.3 billion ducks, 1.3 billion pigs, over a half-billion geese, turkeys, rabbits, sheep, and goats (each!), over 300 million cattle, and over 70 million rodents for food in 2019 alone [1]. Animal agriculture overall generate…

>>There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products Yeah I absolutely don't agree. I don't believe it can be done at scale - but it can be done. Watch a channel like Harry's Farm on youtube - guy basically has cattle on moors where nothing else could possibly grow - they just stay there all year, eat grass, then one day they get slaughtered. There is nothing about farmi…

> I don't believe it can be done at scale

Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total.

> but it can be done

We may also find farms where there are no animal inputs used. It can be done.

> it should be reflected in its cost - people shouldn't be eating meat 3x times a day

Removing all subsidies for dairy, meat & fishing would help a lot.

>> The only sane and ethical response to this devastation is to completely reject the economic exploitation of animals - to adopt a fully vegan philosophy

> I think you might be getting too much of that "greenwashed" propaganda yourself

If you don't see the logic in it, then you just haven't found the power to really acknowledge all the problems associated with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Meat-eati...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#188
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products Yeah I absolutely don't agree. I don't believe it can be done at scale - but it can be done. Watch a channel like Harry's Farm on youtube - guy basically has cattle on moors where nothing else could possibly grow - they just stay there all year, eat grass, then one day they get slaughtered. There is nothing about farmi…

> I don't believe it can be done at scale Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total. > but it can be done We may also find farms where there are no animal inputs used. It can be done. > it should be reflected in its cost - people shouldn't be eating meat 3x times a day Removing all subsidies for dairy, meat & fishing would help a lot. >> The only sane and ethical response to this devastation i…

>>Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total.

That sounds very different to "There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products"

>>Removing all subsidies for dairy, meat & fishing would help a lot.

I agree.

>>If you don't see the logic in it, then you just haven't found the power to really acknowledge all the problems associated with it.

I absolutely do see the logic in it, but someone saying that the only way to solve this is by going vegan is no different than someone saying that the only way to solve global warming is to stop driving cars. Would that solve the problem? Of course it would. Are the chances of that happening greater than 0? No, they aren't. This isn't personal criticism of course - if you feel that going vegan is consistent with your logical and moral stance, please go ahead. But I don't think we should even pretend that veganism is the solution to this problem on a global scale, because I don't believe you would get anywhere near the required number of people on board with it. The steps that I think are far more realistic are - more sustainable animal husbandry, sharp rise in cost of meat to reflect its true cost(which will naturally reduce the amount of meat consumed), and yes, like you said - removal of artificial subsidies to those industries.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just fish. The sheer number of animals that are slaughtered to produce meat for human consumption is absolutely mind-boggling. In addition to the fish, humans killed 72 billion chickens, 3.3 billion ducks, 1.3 billion pigs, over a half-billion geese, turkeys, rabbits, sheep, and goats (each!), over 300 million cattle, and over 70 million rodents for food in 2019 alone [1]. Animal agriculture overall generate…

Nearly 100% of my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows. They are rotationally grazed and live their whole lives in the outdoors. It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket - ground beef is half the price, steaks are as little as 10%, because all cuts are priced the same. (My dairy comes from another, similar farm, and while it is much better, it is more expensive.) I a…

> my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows

https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/humane-meat

> It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket

Thanks to subsidies ... taxes taken also from vegans ;)

> the massive, endless fields of soybeans

"More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh"

https://ourworldindata.org/soy

> Fill the plains with cows. For thousands of years, they were filled with ruminants

You need also predators ... and I don't mean weekend hunters. Without predators the ruminants tend to stay in one place and eat everything, till nothing than desert remains. See Sahara and near east.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09596836166704... Blame it on the goats? Desertification in the Near East during the Holocene

> there's a lot of money in producing highly processed foods and (soon) artificial meat

Not yet, and artificial meat may not be here in next few decades (the scale is the problem). Soon is an overstretch. Artificial meat doesn't need to be highly processed ... in principle it's just plant protein (flour), starches, colorings (red beet etc.) and spices, maybe oils and vitamines. No magic, no complicated processes involving toxic chemicals etc (depends on the oils, tho).

> holistic look what what we need to do ecologically and environmentally, which would include meat

Meat is not necessary in those equations. We don't need to eat meat to live and prosper. We have composting and syntropic agriculture. We don't need animal inputs in agriculture. We can rewild areas used for animal farming (75% of 50% agriland of habitable land) and let the wildife rebound and manage the ecosystems. We can restore carbon sinks (double the forests) and stop anthropogenic wild life die offs. We don't have to rape the nature as we do now. For that the vegan movement is the logic outcome.

>> fated to death from birth

> Everything born into this world will die

https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember one of my undergrad economics professors going on a rant about how we will never run out of oil or tungsten or whatever because the marginal cost will increase gradually until we find alternative materials. It sounded very intelligent and convincing to me at 18, and sounds downright idiotic to me now.

s someone who degreed in economics, and has been studying the economic resource situation formally and informally for nearly five decades, what I've come to realise is that economics has a very shaky grasp on the actual, and sensible, pricing of extractive resources. Economically, mining is exploitation of any resource on a basis which fails to account for the full ecological formation costs of that resource. In the…

> someone who degreed in economics

Condolences ;)

> I've come to realise is that economics has a very shaky grasp on the actual

It can't be taken seriously if the first thing it does is disregard externalities.

Economics is here only to validate the current system, has no other meaning than that.

Post reply on HN