Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#181

Post by knorker » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 9:52 AM UTC

eternalban wrote: post #175

knorker wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are exactly the same workers in Poland being paid much less? SV employees are overpaid. They are being paid to work in SV . Because no sane person would want to live in San Francisco, Menlo Park, Cupertino, or Mountain View. And the people doing the exact same work in Warsaw, with the exact same skills and performance, are being underpaid. I have no sympathy for the people on the SV side of this equation.

> Then why are exactly the same workers in Poland being paid much less? Ask for more and if you think you are being undervalued look elsewhere. > Because no sane person would want to live in San Francisco, Menlo Park, Cupertino, or Mountain View. This sort of (extreme) caricature strikes me as a form of coping, to be honest, and doesn't really reflect well on your mindset. "no sane person", seriously?

> Ask for more and if you think you are being undervalued look elsewhere.

I have a hard time following your logic here.

The only way to get a SV salary has been to move to SV, because that's the only place the companies are willing to pay it. They'll want you there so much that they will pay the cost of moving, pay for a relocation consultant, pay for three months of hotel while you look, pay for immigration, visas (visas are not cheap), give an extra lump sum just for "extra costs you'll incur moving".

Yet you think that it's possible for someone in Poland and India to just go "yeah, can I get the cash equivalent of all that, and also the SV salary?".

I agree that remote work logically is remote work. But it's not that SV employees used to be paid "just right" and everyone else was a sucker. SV employees were and are overpaid.

> "no sane person", seriously?

It's hyperbole, sure. But survey after survey shows that even internal transfers within a company (say moving from the Poland office to Bay Area) makes for people who hate where they live, but they do it for the money.

So the company is paying (bribing) people to move to SV against their will. Just like they're paying salary at all for you to do other things you wouldn't otherwise do.

Compare this to finance. People who leave my company generally go to finance, because it pays 50-100% more. But then you work in finance. And if you already make $300k then (empirically) another 50% won't make you think finance is worth it. Some do leave. Just like some do move to SV. But they don't like it.

Clearly the company wants people to live there. Clearly people don't want to. So if you don't do it, why should you be paid to live there?

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#182

Post by eternalban » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

knorker wrote: post #181

eternalban wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why are exactly the same workers in Poland being paid much less? Ask for more and if you think you are being undervalued look elsewhere. > Because no sane person would want to live in San Francisco, Menlo Park, Cupertino, or Mountain View. This sort of (extreme) caricature strikes me as a form of coping, to be honest, and doesn't really reflect well on your mindset. "no sane person", seriously?

> Ask for more and if you think you are being undervalued look elsewhere. I have a hard time following your logic here. The only way to get a SV salary has been to move to SV, because that's the only place the companies are willing to pay it. They'll want you there so much that they will pay the cost of moving, pay for a relocation consultant, pay for three months of hotel while you look, pay for immigration, visas (…

[p.s. I don’t think we have an argument to be honest. You are arguing facts on the ground, and I am arguing that these facts are distortions that need to be addressed. Peace out. (I sometimes get irritable in the morning. Appy logies fellow code slinger.)]

You are having a hard time because you already have your little thesis in hand regarding “SV salary” and are not listening to what I am saying.

I am saying that you as an engineer are providing quite a lot of value in today’s world and if the collective you are unable to take the necessary measures to negotiate value for value employment agreements with international corporations, it does not invalidate the fact that a competent SWE working in location X (given that X is effectively and practically accessible to employer) is creating a given measure of units of labor and intellectual value that is independent of location X.

I do not agree that SV salaries were excessive. Have you seen lawyer rates? All they do is jaw bone. We are creating the very fabric of tomorrow’s societies. We are creators and builders. What is excessive is the greed of the C Suites. They should be spreading those corporate profits wider, and yes, pay equivalent pay to whoever is pulling their weight.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#183

Post by trpv » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 3:45 PM UTC

eddieroger wrote: post #152

trpv wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would like to see some data on this. I don’t know of anyone who’s gotten Covid since… summer or so?

I know someone with an active infection right now. Also a decently well known podcaster in the Apple space had it in the last week or so. It still exists, but no one tests and everyone's over it. You're right about wanting data, but don't hold your breath for it, and it's still definitely going around.

That makes sense. When I got Covid just over a year ago, I didn’t bother testing or reporting it, just stayed home. Interestingly enough, I know a couple people who were sick and tested positive for the flu but not Covid this winter

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#184

Post by School-Cotton » Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 6:11 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #136

School-Cotton wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if they wanted someone local who would come in to an office.

And that's the issue at play here, isn't it? The hiring was done when work was remote, paying SV rates for that, then the company decides to move the goalposts and now there's this weird justification being played to side with the company. Take off your company-man hat, does it make sense to you as a worker?

AFAIK, the default expectation at most places was that the pandemic wasn't permanent and eventually people would be back in person.

> Take off your company-man hat, does it make sense to you as a worker?

I don't tend to analyze things along "class struggle" lines. Obviously, as a worker, I would prefer to make as much money and have as good of work conditions as possible, but I don't necessarily think any deviation from that is "unfair".

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#185

Post by tinyhouse » Fri, Feb 24, 2023, 3:08 AM UTC

polotics wrote: post #167

tinyhouse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the survey would show that devs don't want to be required to come to the office. Everyone wants the flexibility to choose. If you asked them if they want to move to 4-day work weeks I'm sure most devs would say yes. In the end you need to balance between what the employees want and what's reasonable for the company.

How is requiring staff to spend hours of unpaid time in commutes reasonable? In practice since working 70% from home I have more energy, more ideas, am less tired at 5he end of the day... Looks reasonable to me.

They need to live closer to the office if they don't want to spend hours commuting. I agree fully in-person is overkill. But 2-3 times a week is reasonable.