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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#181

Post by flavius29663 »

adrianparsons wrote: post #146
flavius29663 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

> can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? There's a small movement to eradicate the requirement for midrise buildings to have 2 stairways. Advocates point to European regulations and claim that a single stairway is just as safe as 2. Double stairways, they say, makes construction more expensive and results in awkward, undesirable apartment layouts. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-flo…

This to me sounds like another case of out of context "Europeans do this, so it must be better". From personal experience, the UK takes fire safety much more serious than the US: fire alarm tested every week, fire drills are made often and *for real*, fire doors everywhere, every kitchen has a fire blanket (not just an extinguisher), every building has 2 doors, every appliance has a plug with a fuse in the plug itself (btw, American plugs are a joke) etc.

Are you proposing to get rid of the second stairway alone, or are you going to bring all the other regulations too?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#182

Post by jimmySixDOF »

Taking the other side of the scam coin there are construction projects that are over engineered out of all sense of proportion simply to increase the budget and associated flow throughs like skimming or powerbase increases etc. And that's operating under the assumption the project is useful at all in the first place which is by no means a forgone conclusion especially in contrast to other possible devotions of time and energy.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#183

Post by treis »

Teever wrote: post #172
treis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

I don't understand your thought process in this situation at all. Things worked out for you when you followed the rules, and because they worked out, you're not going to follow the rules in the future?

I lucked out that the first inspector was lazy and/or incompetent. He was there for 5 minutes and spent 4 of them chatting about his kid's baseball game. If I had the second inspector first he would have made me rework the design.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#184

Post by treis »

flavius29663 wrote: post #177
treis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

How is that a bad safety measure? if not close enough, people will use extension cords, which will be significantly more dangerous than proper outlets.

There's an outlet 2.5 feet away. No need for an extension cord.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#185

Post by tablespoon »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #163
tablespoon wrote: post #94

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Just because some building codes have a good purpose doesn't mean all building codes do. On another forum there was recently a long discussion about the requirement for x number of power outlets in hallways of single family homes. This was added when wall-to-wall carpeting was fashionable and people in homes without outlets in the hallways were using extension cords so their vacuum cleaners could reach all of the car…

> On another forum there was recently a long discussion about the requirement for x number of power outlets in hallways of single family homes. This was added when wall-to-wall carpeting was fashionable...

> Is this something that should be legally mandated for everyone? Especially since wall-to-wall carpeting has fallen out of fashion...

That's a bizarre argument. Anyone who knows about fashions knows that 1) what goes out of fashion, often comes back into fashion again, 2) fashions aren't universally followed. Unless building codes were changed to forbid carpeted hallways, I don't see any good rationale for eliminating the code requirements for them. America isn't Japan, it's quite reasonable to assume someone will likely put carpet in that hallway at a later date (anecdote: I personally know people who have pulled out carpet and found hardwood floors underneath).

Also you're focusing too much one one rationale. Those outlets are also very useful for night lights. Falling isn't usually a big deal for younger people, but it can be very serious for older people.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#186

Post by rekabis »

mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

“Red tape is painted with the blood of innocents who died before those regulations existed” - probably the best way to state it in a pithy manner.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#187

Post by ElectricalUnion »

AlbertCory wrote: post #137
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Since I live in the Bay Area which does have earthquakes, we have very strict building codes. Your water heater has to be secured to the wall, as one simple example, and I've personally heard of houses catching fire because of the water heater falling over. That said: there are always "grandfathered" buildings which were built before the latest codes; unreinforced masonry, for example. What politician wants to tell t…

I wonder at this point if the Japanese real state model is the correct one:

* Building code is constantly updated, and this makes old built homes undesirable - building itself is worth 0 yen after around 7 years;

* Shrinking population means most real estate is actually empty/abandoned on low demand areas;

* Very disaster prone area so most buildings are either new (and build code compliant) or constantly being tested for disaster resistence;

* Few invest on real estate speculation as the return-on-investment is horrible.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#188

Post by thimkerbell »

"There’s no reinforced steel here,” she says, “so the concrete lost its strength and the columns collapsed, along with the floors, as soon as the ground started to shake.”"

"'The problem lies in implementation and oversight'" of building codes that are strict on paper.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#189

Post by pmarreck »

ornornor wrote: post #101
cm2187 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you are equating this to in software, but if it is security vulnerabilities, incompetence has probably more to do with it than time pressure. It takes about the time to write a parametrised query than to concatenate your strings.

The corners that are cut are often around automated testing, security, best practices. And it adds up, so if nothing is done right then it’s faster to keep doing it wrong than rearchitect or abstract everything so you can have a clean implementation. Honestly, I haven’t been working that long (about a decade) but this general attitude from PHBs calling the shots in software makes me count the months until I can retir…

Yeah, I'd advise looking for work elsewhere, it's not supposed to be like that and I guarantee you that you could find something better

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#190

Post by treis »

pkulak wrote: post #174
treis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

That code is a mish-mash of a real safety thing (we don't regulate extension cords at all, so we try to make sure there are outlets everywhere and you don't need them... especially around water, like a sink!) and a general effort to make sure that if you buy a house, you don't figure out later that it's a piece of shit. My favorite examples are minimum length of extra wire in a box, and a neutral required. I don't th…

Like I said, there's an outlet on every corner of the island about 2.5 feet from the sink. And on the other kitchen sink there's one immediately on each side. Nobody is getting fucked.
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