Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 226 posts

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#181

Post by mnming »

ivanb wrote: post #174

The ultimate failing of Clojure as a tool is its inefficiency measured in $ per feature. The language is not very approachable for junior programmers. You can grab a Python programmer and graft them on a Java or TS project and the same week they will deliver features and bugfixes. Reading other's people code in Clojure is much harder especially when coming from imperative world. The language is terse. The documentati…

I do agree. While I made all my projects in mostly Clojure, I absolutely cannot imagine hiring & onboarding other drvs.

And if I had a tough day, my clj code will look like rubbish, while my typescript code will still look decent.

It's really not a language for big team.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#182

Post by simongray »

cutler wrote: post #164
munro wrote: post #127

I could be reading the energy wrong, but damn it looks corporate bullshit sucked the life out of Rich

He certainly looks and sounds older. Rich seemed to ride the wave of Clojure's early success with a succession of brilliant presentations. Then .... nothing.

He's speaking again this year at Clojure Conj, so maybe there will soon be something again.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#183

Post by simongray »

mnming wrote: post #181
ivanb wrote: post #174

The ultimate failing of Clojure as a tool is its inefficiency measured in $ per feature. The language is not very approachable for junior programmers. You can grab a Python programmer and graft them on a Java or TS project and the same week they will deliver features and bugfixes. Reading other's people code in Clojure is much harder especially when coming from imperative world. The language is terse. The documentati…

I do agree. While I made all my projects in mostly Clojure, I absolutely cannot imagine hiring & onboarding other drvs. And if I had a tough day, my clj code will look like rubbish, while my typescript code will still look decent. It's really not a language for big team.

I have onboarded developers coming directly from university and it went fine?

In fact, at my old job, the entire team learned Clojure on the job. I was the only hire who had learned it prior to being hired. Our codebase was fine and very maintainable.

The other teams were similarly new to Clojure. Most people spent a few months doing increasingly more advanced things until they were comfortable with the language and the codebase.

The main issue for complete beginners is learning to grapple with the different development setup compared to what they might be used to, i.e. interactive development on a live system using an editor-integrated REPL. We basically set everyone up with IntelliJ and parinfer. Paredit was optional, as was alternative editors such as emacs.

IntelliJ + parinfer is a similar development experience to Python. The only part that is foreign in that case is the interactive development of a live system which the new devs quickly come around to seeing the benefits of. It helps having seniors who point out the new concepts.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#184

Post by lenkite »

kccqzy wrote: post #161
lenkite wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets say that someone wants to improve on Clojure and make a better functional, immutable LISP! What should they start with ? Some things I miss is type support (for easy refactoring, auto documentation and performance), (small) native compilation, support for mobile platforms and their UI's, first-class web-assembly support, real structs and misc things like performant implementations for `first`, `last` and other c…

Are you really suggesting type support? I don't mind types but I think spec is more in the spirit of Clojure. Have you taken a look at it? https://clojure.org/about/spec

spec is mostly useless for tools and IDE's and static analysis. Spec necessitates running your program with an arbitrary runtime complexity. Type checking is done before your program runs. The idea is to remove the need for runtime checks as much as possible.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#185

Post by johannboehme »

hota_mazi wrote: post #149
bcrosby95 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want an easy win, one thing Rich mentioned in a talk is - if he had to do Clojure all over again today - he would put transducers at the 'bottom'. For data transformation this makes the underlying collection type largely immaterial. > real structs I'm not even sure if value types are conducive towards immutable, persistent data structures. I'm certainly excited for project Valhalla but I'm not sure if Clojure,…

Clojure users fighting against static typing are on the wrong side of history. They are fighting a side for all the wrong reasons, and they will lose. There is a reason why all dynamically typed languages today are scrambling to add some form of static typing to their language, but never the other way around. Static typing does everything dynamic typing does, but better, faster, allow automatic refactoring, faster pr…

You are wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5WdGrpoug Static typing only leads to devs trying to press the real world in stupid arbitrary categories.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#187

Post by johannboehme »

lenkite wrote: post #184
kccqzy wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really suggesting type support? I don't mind types but I think spec is more in the spirit of Clojure. Have you taken a look at it? https://clojure.org/about/spec

spec is mostly useless for tools and IDE's and static analysis. Spec necessitates running your program with an arbitrary runtime complexity. Type checking is done before your program runs. The idea is to remove the need for runtime checks as much as possible.

But clojure is not meant to be developed statically! It is supposed to be running while developing it. You don't need static analysis if the programm is running and inspectable.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#188

Post by Bost »

camdez wrote: post #109
snorremd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Clojure ORMs aren't really that popular considering most Clojurists just use the built in datatypes (e.g. maps) to represent data. There are no classes as such (unless you use Java interop). If you need a query builder the honeysql library is really nice.

Expanding on this a bit, Clojure, as a language, is fundamentally against the idea of ORMs in its design. Objects / classes are not so much the problem, per se—it's specifically that ORMs fundamentally involve scattering uncoordinated mutable state throughout the application. A foundational thesis of Clojure is that mutation is a tremendous source of bugs, and should be avoided / thoughtfully limited. Once you let th…

Underrated! (Thank you.)

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#189

Post by KingMob »

phforms wrote: post #60
rawoke083600 wrote: post #20

I've started learning Clojure about a year ago, couldn't say it was easy (the fault might be with me and not Clojure) Clojure has a lot a faults (just look at some of the comments here) BUT and it's a BIG BUT for me... Clojure is SUPER FUN :) Over the years(15+), I've been coding in PHP (suck it haters), Go, Rust,Java,Python AngularJS+, Svelte and I can honestly say for me, nothing is more fun that coding in Clojure.…

Same here, started using Clojure pretty much exclusively about a year ago and never looked back. It was rough to get to that comfortable state where I am now, having to find out how Clojure CLI tools work, what Java Classpaths are, how to properly set up my editor (Neovim), how to make sense of Clojure internals like “seq” and when to use which collection type (and when not to care), etc. But it has also been a fun a…

> doesn’t force me to follow a certain style or paradigm; it provides many different choices (“providing more” instead of “taking away”) and treats you like an adult who can make responsible decisions on their own.

This is really not correct. Certain choices Hickey made, prevent you from coding as you like. E.g., Hickey doesn't allow strong reader macros or inheritance in Clojure.

Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video

#190

Post by retro212 »

revskill wrote: post #8

I tried Clojure, but when i look for a good ORM, what i see is a paid library.

If your'e using PostgreSQL, checkout https://github.com/retro/penkala . It provides most of the things you would expect when dealing with the database without it being an ORM. IF you're interested in how the API looks checkout https://github.com/retro/penkala/blob/master/test/com/verybi... which implements most of the queries that can be found on https://www.postgresqltutorial.com

note: I'm the author of Penkala

Post reply on HN