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Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

phillymag.com

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Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#181

Post by grugagag »

sonofhans wrote: post #174
WalterBright wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of the free market is that the way to maximize profit is to maximize customer satisfaction.

Yeah, Mr. Bright, usually I think you’ve got your head screwed on pretty well, but this is a religious statement, not a matter of fact. 1. Find me a free market. Otherwise we’re just going to devolve into “no true Scotsman.” The USA, for instance, is light years from a free market in basically every respect. 2. In a truly free market the way to maximize profits is to create and maintain a monopoly. Nearly every large…

Spot on. Just uttering the beauty of freemarket is X is quite lazy intelectually to be honest.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#182

Post by mcronce »

WalterBright wrote: post #149
komali2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's easier to optimize for profit, so what? How can your core mission be education but "you're optimizing for profit?" Either your core mission is education or it isn't. I feel like this is the kind of goal setting miss I see businesses make all the time. They'll be doing be doing some version of the ubiquitous value setting activity, and as ideas are pitched someone will be like "wait, isn't our most basic value…

The beauty of the free market is that the way to maximize profit is to maximize customer satisfaction.

See also: Insurance, healthcare, and car dealerships, all "free market" institutions that people consistently have great experiences with

/s, in case it's non-obvious

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#183

Post by thwayunion »

secabeen wrote: post #132
thwayunion wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing in the statement I see precludes Temple... Nothing precludes them from doing anything, and nothing precludes students from seeking legal remedies for those actions. Look, I'm not sure. Temple might have a defensible claim for charging tuition; it's a really complicated situation and I wouldn't take advice from anyone who isn't an employment lawyer. But the letter that Temple sent out is probably going to ge…

> But the letter that Temple sent out is probably going to get Temple into some trouble for the reason identified by your parent comment. It's certainly gotten them into reputational trouble. I don't think they'll get into legal trouble until there is an actual harm when either the fine is charged, or a registration is blocked. Courts don't generally rule on hypotheticals.

I'm sure Temple has good lawyers, but I'm skeptical.

My employment contract as a graduate student was one page long. There was definitely an implicit consensus ad idem regarding tuition remissions for graduate students.

It was not spelled out what exactly entitled me to the remission. It DEFINITELY wasn't an explicit benefit given in consideration for my labor as an RA. In fact, that situation might even be uncredible for universities to claim given the tax structure at play here.

Temple's "and therefore you don't get benefits and therefore YOU owe US money!" reasoning might make sense to a Goldman mouth breather, but I somehow doubt that anyone else involved in this agreement going back 5+ decades has ever thought that this is how things are supposed to work. I am genuinely skeptical that the COO (or whatever)'s interpretation of the contract is spelled out in writing in the contracts, or that there was ever a meeting of the minds on this matter.

And it's pretty trivial to show damages here without a bill coming due. If I were a grad student I'd put $xxK in a money market account, document my investment plan (or three ;) ), and sue for the opportunity cost plus treble damages even if this all gets resolved.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#185

Post by munk-a »

giantg2 wrote: post #150
munk-a wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reports from strikers trying to refill medication that the medical benefit suspension has already unilaterally gone into effect. The university has gone ahead with their threats in that regard (which is especially shitty since it's pretty standard in the US to give employees a health insurance grace period on termination). I am really confused about what the university thinks they're going to get out of the…

Would COBRA come into play here?

They should all be eligible for COBRA, but COBRA is pretty insanely expensive (which is hard to pay for if you're striking and don't have a regular income - especially if you don't have much money in general like most grads). And people weren't actually informed their healthcare would be cut so they weren't aware they'd need to apply for bridging coverage.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#186

Post by thwayunion »

legitster wrote: post #148
loeg wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grad student "tuition" isn't pay. It's a made up number transferred from the university to itself.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of grad students who do pay full price and do not take on any of the responsibilities.

This is true but irrelevant. The students striking are all phd students with TAships or RAships.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#187

Post by pxc »

komali2 wrote: post #143
munk-a wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is never a good response as long as there are other avenues open. I absolutely agree that Temple's actions here are loathsome, but even reciprocal violence should be avoided if possible.

Given that some are arguing that we open the definition of violence to include things beyond what society has traditionally thought of it to be (punching people in the face) to society's detriment imo, how do you feel about the statement "removing healthcare is violence?" Can you think of other forms of similar violence that may sit well with you? Some might argue that a strike itself is a form of violence against pr…

> Imo once healthcare is touched, which I do agree is a form of violence to remove, the strikers should absolutely respond in kind, by escalating the strike to slow some other part of the operation, perhaps by disrupting deliveries, switching off power to things, whatever else.

Exactly. Punching faces is probably not stategic, and the strikers likely have other ways to respond in the course of this strike. But we should not mince words about what they're responding to, and we should bear the university's violence in mind when examining and discussing whatever the strikers decide to do next.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#188

Post by thwayunion »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #177
selimthegrim wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can claim it depending on your student scholarship (NSF GRF) or postdoctoral status and what it says on your 1098.

I have been explicitly told by a tax accountant that I cannot. If a third party makes a payment to one of their own offices, even presuming that money exists at all to begin with, I can't claim it on my taxes as income or a credit.

The person you're responding to is correct in very specific cases like the GRFP; certain fellowships function differently.

You're correct in the case of 90+% of grad students.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#189

Post by thwayunion »

jltsiren wrote: post #147
72948957 wrote: post #86

To be honest, I don't really get the point of the strike. The grad students are not only getting a free education, they're also getting paid a stipend on top of that. Grad students tend to have extremely flexible schedules, freedom to pursue their intellectual interests, the ability to attend seminars and travel to conferences, etc. At least in STEM fields, anyone in grad school probably could have gotten a higher-pa…

I don't like "grad students" as a category. Master's students, or early stage PhD students, are typically continuing their undergraduate education. They should be considered students for all intents and purposes. People doing research for a PhD should be considered junior professionals rather than students and paid accordingly. When I was doing it, the pay was 2/3 of what you could reasonably expect in the industry.…

> When I was doing it, the pay was 2/3 of what you could reasonably expect in the industry

You must be quite old or not in CS :) It was conservatively 1/5 when I was a PhD student (30K was a quite good stipend vs 150K was a kinda mid MS offer). It's as low as 1/10 now.

If STEM PHD students at Temple are really making 19K then it's gotta be at most 1/10 and as low as 1/20 for the good ones.

I do agree, though. We should just separate MS from PhD and pay post-MS PhD students something like what post-docs make. I think that would be very fair -- way less than industry, but a proper wage for a real laborer.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#190

Post by thwayunion »

tssva wrote: post #51

The article leaves out the fact that PA law doesn't allow paying or otherwise providing any compensation to striking public employees which these grad students are.

Tuition remission isn't pay or compensation. Very explicitly so. Universities even lobbied to maintain this status quo during the TCJA process.
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