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International Security and Estonia 2023

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#181

Post by HatchedLake721 »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #168
HatchedLake721 wrote: post #122

I highly encourage people to watch “How the United States created Vladimir Putin” that was presented in Yale University by Vladimir Pozner. It gives another perspective that’s often ignored how US and European foreign policy has played part in shaping what Russia is today. https://youtu.be/8X7Ng75e5gQ

I think it's important to acknowledge that this perspective forms a significant part of Russian internal justification for it's action. Significantly, this allows Russia to claim to be a victim in pretty much all interactions with the west. I don't think Russia should have been able to dictate the terms of NATO enlargement, but I do think the way that we enlarged NATO, combined with the lackluster way that the west a…

Russia did not comment on NATO enlargement in the beginning, Putin actually wanted to join NATO in his early presidency.

Watch the video.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#182

Post by ceejayoz »

blub wrote: post #177
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #162

This is realpolitik, so there isn't any morality beyond expansion and acquisition. Can we stop pretending these are anything other than resource wars, combined with an excuse to throw money at the defence industries? Russia looked at US actions in Iraq etc and apparently had an irrational attack of imperial atrocity envy, blended with greed over the mineral-rich areas of Eastern Ukraine. Neither empire is wholesome a…

Did the US ever present any proof of Russia manipulating elections or co-opting any politicians? After Trump was cleared, I’ve started thinking that the US is just going through another Red Scare.

You can skim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... for a wide range of items with varying levels of evidence. "Proof" comes down to whether you're willing to accept assertions - the ability to execute a search warrant on the Kremlin is... limited - and what level of interference counts.

The Republicans concluded Paul Manafort, for example, "represented a grave counterintelligence threat" and "created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump campaign" while acting as Trump's campaign manager. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/08/18/sena...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#183

Post by sushzbdbehsh »

weberer wrote: post #180
sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because a famine has never occured before in the history of civilisation

>Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the European Parliament,[4][32] Ukraine[33] alongside 22 countries, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet regime.[34]

now do the bit about academic debate

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#184

Post by ceejayoz »

aa-jv wrote: post #172
redbar0n wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> militarised colonialism, while the US is fairly competent at it. Are they, actually? Vietnam, Afghanistan etc..

We must never forget that the American people murdered 5% of Iraqs' population on the basis of utter lies and have not faced justice for this atrocious abuse. The moral authority that Americans claim, to justify their nations' heinous crimes against humanity, simply doesn't exist. Americans AND Russians ought to be shunned for their nations' war crimes.

No one claims a 2M+ death toll in Iraq, as far as I can tell.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#185

Post by aa-jv »

Thaxll wrote: post #132
Kukumber wrote: post #120

> Internally, Russia has become Soviet Union 2.0 Ok, i stopped at that line, that's when you know it's not a report but rather it's propaganda That's sad coming from Estonia

Putin vision is Soviet Union 2.0, it has been pretty clear in the last year and even before. From the Kremlin: "Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and co-patriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegrat…

Tell me you don't know what a Commonwealth of Independent States is, without telling me.

Putin doesn't want a "new USSR". He wants a Commonwealth. If its good for Brits and Canucks and Aussies and Kiwi's, it'll work for the rest of the world too ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_St...

Its the USA that doesn't want to see this commonwealth form and become economically viable as a trading partner with the EU, because not only would it indeed represent an economic bloc that would be overwhelming for the US' intelligence services to corrupt, and usurp .. as they are wont to do .. it'd also be a superpower that even China couldn't handle.

Which is why the USA is doing everything it can (Ukraine coup) to ensure this unity never happens.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#186

Post by somenameforme »

enaaem wrote: post #76
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a former USSR country (although not willingly) Was the process of a joining the the USSR ever a willingly thing a country could choose to do or not to do? AFAIK, the process was something more like Russian army invades your country and says "Congrats comrades, you are now liberated and part of the Soviet Union", rather than "Hey, would you like to have a democratic vote on joining our Soviet Union? No hard feelings…

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

The referendum in Crimea has been repeated by numerous Western organizations, including Gallup. [1] The results are nearly identical to what Russia said they were. Russia claimed a 97% "yes" with an 83% turnout rate. Gallup found that 82.8% of Crimeans agreed that the poll reflected the will of the people. It's two ways of saying, more or less, the exact same thing. The minority that opposed joining Russia chose to boycott the referendum, which is why it was 97% yes instead of ~83%. It's going to breakdown largely on ethnicity. Crimea is about 68% ethnic Russian, 13% ethnic Tatar (which is an autonomous republic within Russia), and then about 16% ethnic Ukrainian.

If you're looking to history - this event mirrors Kosovo, just with roles reversed. An ethnic minority, geographically isolated, within Serbia declare their independence. This is rejected by Russia and backed by the US who ensures forces are on the ready to "enforce" Kosovo's independence. The big difference is that the one remained relatively peaceful with no further largescale escalation. Ukraine, by contrast, was determined to retake Crimea and clearly had the full backing of the West. So, in many ways, this war started 9 years ago.

[1] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-a...

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#187

Post by aa-jv »

ceejayoz wrote: post #184
aa-jv wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must never forget that the American people murdered 5% of Iraqs' population on the basis of utter lies and have not faced justice for this atrocious abuse. The moral authority that Americans claim, to justify their nations' heinous crimes against humanity, simply doesn't exist. Americans AND Russians ought to be shunned for their nations' war crimes.

No one claims a 2M+ death toll in Iraq, as far as I can tell.

Of course, because that would destroy the frail moral authority that American's use to impose their war conditions across the globe...

But, you know, those doing all the healing of the victims, have been keeping track:

https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf

"Thus, the intense debate revolving around casualty figures is an important element in the discussion of whether the population supports such interventions or not. It is therefore not surprising that the media, and even parts of academia, be it ideologically motivated or guided by other interests, use starkly sanitized figures (see Chapter 3: “The Numbers War”) And this has been quite successful: In a 2007 poll, Americans estimated the number of killed Iraqis at less than 10,000.

However, should the number of Iraqis killed from the 2003 U.S. invasion until 2012 actually be around one million, as the analysis of the existing scientific studies presented in the present study suggests, this would represent 5% of the total population of Iraq – a number which additionally indicates the extent of the corresponding damage inflicted upon society and the infrastructure. "

“I believe the perception caused by civilian casualties is one of the most dangerous enemies we face.” U.S. General Stanley A. McCrystal in his inaugural speech as ISAF Commander in June 2009.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#188

Post by The_Colonel »

dmpk2k wrote: post #81
ceejayoz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first and most obvious is this... If Russia thinks a verbal assurance from the US SecState to a different country can bind NATO thirty years later as if it were a treaty, they're hopelessly naive. (They're not, of course. They know this is bullshit.)

It was many different leaders. I suggest you actually read the archive document(s). Yes, they're long. Regardless of whether you think the Russians were hopelessly naive or full of shit, it is a promise broken. Remember, we're talking about negotiations, so their opinion matters too, regardless what you or I think about it.

> Regardless of whether you think the Russians were hopelessly naive or full of shit, it is a promise broken.

No, Russian diplomats were not naive. They knew full well that whatever is not on paper does not exist.

It's surreal that 30 years later, we act like poor Russian diplomats didn't know that some random utterances made during long meetings won't be set in stone as an official policy forever.

Those people making such promises were not authorized to make binding promises anyway (something which Russian diplomats were aware of). There's a reason why agreement drafts undergo extensive analysis, vetting and approval process.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#189

Post by ceejayoz »

aa-jv wrote: post #187
ceejayoz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one claims a 2M+ death toll in Iraq, as far as I can tell.

Of course, because that would destroy the frail moral authority that American's use to impose their war conditions across the globe... But, you know, those doing all the healing of the victims, have been keeping track: https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf "Thus, the intense debate revolving around casualty figures is an important element in the discussion of whether the population supports such i…

Like I said, no one's claiming 2M. Even if we take the most aggressive estimate (out of those listed on Wikipedia) of 1M, that's not 5% of the population.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#190

Post by Zanfa »

Avicebron wrote: post #48
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a new case will start then - reparations for the billions in damage, lives lost and upheaval.

I'm not sure reparations have a good track record of brokering any sort of lasting peace and de-escalation, see the treaty of versaille for Germany post wwI...leading into wwII..

The myth of overly harsh measures imposed on Germany after WWI leading into WW2 doesn't make sense. If anything, the measures weren't harsh enough, since after WW2 Germany was denazified, partitioned and occupied for decades, which is much more extreme, but obviously worked.
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