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Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

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Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#181
post #79

Thank you for sharing. I can relate. This is my first “real” full time job, and I’ve now been there 10 years with little to show for it, and not for lack of trying. Software engineer for a small company, report directly to the owners. Repeatedly, I pour my heart and soul into a project that I believe in, only for ownership to trash the project for superficial reasons. I’ll do small things and get overly patronizing p…

Thank you for sharing, I've gone through similar and can absolutely relate. I'm curious—do these business owners you work for have any software or management experience in tech? I've sometimes seen managers do this when they don't know what to do with an employee or don't know what career progression for an employee looks like. This doesn't at all justify shitty behavior, but I've found it useful to identify motivati…

The owners are both engineers, primarily back end, while I do both front and back end.

I suspect they are partially motivated (as other commenters suggested) by not changing too much of what they themselves built personally.

Partially out of a fear of change, but also partially out of a “if we find ourselves without employees and need to run the whole show on our own again, we can’t have a bunch of code we don’t understand” fear.

Which I understand. But fact is, we have customers and internal users who are overworked and have needs. Needs that we aren’t meeting because we never deliver the “right” solution in full, in part because so many parts of the system just seem unofficially “off limits”.

I’ve offered many times to start a regular engineering training and sharing session where I can help make others aware of how I’ve been building things and how they can help maintain them, to try to make everyone more comfortable with the front end, but that also has met the same friction as my projects.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#182

Thank you for sharing. I can relate. This is my first “real” full time job, and I’ve now been there 10 years with little to show for it, and not for lack of trying. Software engineer for a small company, report directly to the owners. Repeatedly, I pour my heart and soul into a project that I believe in, only for ownership to trash the project for superficial reasons. I’ll do small things and get overly patronizing p…

Wow. I can sympathize, as I had the exact same thing happen with me. From “doing grunt work” down to having them “crush it with passive aggressive, belittling remarks”

I actually laid out a plan to fix the automatic builds that were broken for months (and I had to them all manually), and the company owner completely rejected it and laughed me out of the room, only for me to turn around and have him do it himself. Virtually every great idea anyone had was co-opted by him, including another guy before my time who wrote us a complete iOS app in his free time, only to have the code completely scrapped and rewritten from scratch, again by the business owner.

About your 10 years experience: it is still 10 years experience. Go and get another job. Go interview. It sucks and it’s tiring but there's no risk involved if you keep your current job. With 10 years of experience I'm sure you’ll get something better.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#183
> That and my age made me feel really depressed and unwanted.

In my case, my age was the "elephant in the room," at my interviews.

I feel as if the original in-house recruiters (different beast from the "outhouse" recruiters, though), and even a couple of managers, had no issue with my age. As soon as even one tech person became involved, however, the temperature dropped twenty degrees. They were usually quite brusque, and I knew that I was screwed. After that, the company usually "ghosted" me. I stopped following up, because even the enthusiastic and supportive recruiters and managers wouldn't talk to me.

It was very depressing. It was not my imagination. They really didn't want me, and they didn't care whether or not I knew it. No blowing sunshine up my butt, or stringing me along. They wanted me gone, ASAP.

The few companies that seemed interested, did so, on a pretty nasty footing. They made it clear that they would be doing me a huge favor, by offering me a job, and that I'd be treated like garbage, if I took it.

That was why I threw in the towel, and just decided to retire. I was more than willing to do a pretty awesome job, and take chances with risky companies, for a fairly low wage, but this did not seem to matter (indeed, it seldom even got to that point).

But it's all actually been for the best. Nowadays, I can't even imagine going back to the rat race (I liked that "Happiness" cartoon, that a previous post linked[0]).

It was very sick, and I never want to go back to that, ever again.

I want to work, and I do -harder than I ever have in my life, but I will not be treated like garbage, anymore. I know that it's a rare luxury, to have the means to quit, and I'm grateful.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9dZQelULDk

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#184

This is called "learned helplessness." I read an article on this where a dog would encounter electric shocks and it got to the point where the dog wouldn't even try to jump or leave the area with the electric shocks because it just assumed that the electric shocks were going to keep happening. Whenever you think to yourself "why bother changing, it's just going to be as bad as it is here" that is learned helplessness…

Tony Robbins talks a lot about this. I'm not one for self help books but it really does affect your ability to affect change.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#185

I had a job at Apple for two years, which paid very well and had very good stock grants, but I absolutely hated. I hated most (not all) of my managers, I didn't really enjoy the work, and my team in particular would routinely have meetings until 9pm, multiple times a week. I would sign off from my computer, and lie down on my bed nearly catatonic because I was so unhappy, to a point where my wife was getting a bit wo…

>> You only have one life, and you get maybe 100 years to live it. Don't waste it in a job that makes you miserable.

THIS.

I've been watching a lot of the Shawn Ryan interviews lately. The first one I watched was Cody Alford. Dude was a marine scout sniper, then joined force recon. His first two deployments were in Fallujah - one was during the Operation Phantom Fury. He also survived being shot in the head (he had his helmet on) and retells that story.

In short, dude went through a ton of stuff mentally and physically which caused him to retire from the military early. A lot of what OP talks about, he experienced in the military as he rose in the ranks (he was the fastest marine to E8) and the last part of the interview is where he lays out how he got his sanity back, the role of psychedelics in his recovery and what he's doing now.

The interview is over 6 hours long, but it's an absolute whirlwind and it's really inspiring to me to see someone who's already lived multiple lives over the span of his short life, telling people to "die living" not the other way around. I know his perspective has made me change a lot of what I've been doing.

Cody Alford - Marine Raider/MARSOC Sniper Who Became a Nomad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQbdKhNiPWY

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#186

I had a job at Apple for two years, which paid very well and had very good stock grants, but I absolutely hated. I hated most (not all) of my managers, I didn't really enjoy the work, and my team in particular would routinely have meetings until 9pm, multiple times a week. I would sign off from my computer, and lie down on my bed nearly catatonic because I was so unhappy, to a point where my wife was getting a bit wo…

Sounds very similar to my early 2020 - mid 2022. Got a "dream role" at Apple that utilized my niche expertise, was assigned to a high-value component of a high-impact project that sounded like a perfect fit.

2022 comes around and we have a barely functional prototype that was initially due to be shipped in mid 2021, constant turn-over in software engineering and product management, the front-end that had been build didn't align with the back-end due to a complete lack of project coordination, but felt tied to the role due to stock grants.

Left to join a 4-person start-up founded by one of my good friends from college and haven't looked back since :)

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#187
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire thread is a cry for help and yet the thing that would probably actually treat the problem is being dismissed. Just say you don't wanna do the work and stop making excuses. It's like complaining that going running could cause you to sprain your ankle when a doctor tells you to run for the health of your heart. Until you try it you have no idea what's gonna happen. Instead you do nothing paralyzed by inacti…

Treat the symptom, technically. The problem is a toxic working environment. The meta problem is handwaving away too many toxic working environments with "the root cause of the problem is solved because the victims can get therapy"

If something in your house is unsafe (root problem) and caused you an injury, you still have to treat the injury.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#188
post #25

If you are in a large company and don't have a good relationship with your boss or department, one good option is to network with other people/departments in the company and find a cool project to work on. It's super easy for HR to approve internal transfers since you are already past all the new hire paperwork. When I was an intern at a large company, I rotated through a TON of departments until I found what I liked…

Yup, that's how we stole few good people off other departments.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#189

Damn I really needed this today. I've been stuck in such a rut lately. I don't have a situation quite the same as yours, but it's the same in the ways that matter: I feel stuck and I just want to leave the prison. I don't really know what to do. I have tons of skills, across multiple domains/industries, yet I can't seem to get a job. I'm in that weird middle ground of having too much experience for entry-level positi…

That's a tough one. I know some sysadmins would love to quit their jobs to do something concrete and tangible like wood working or carpentry. On the other hand, I imagine carpentry can be hard work, physically stressful, financially uncertain.

From how you described, I think you're naturally interested in computers and servers, and will likely continue studying and experimenting anyway, even if it hasn't yet led to paying work. You can gain knowledge and experience through these side projects, and that can prepare a way for you to make a full career transition. I don't have any answers or advice, as I'm still trying to figure it out myself (currently in a fairly demotivated phase, looking for the next step up) - but I wish us all good luck in our endeavors. Personally, I believe you're on your way to becoming a tech wizard. The question is finding someone, maybe a smaller company/startup, who can recognize your value, talent, and potential.

Re: Tell HN: Sometimes you don't realise how bad something is until you leave

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you exit, have you actually told your bosses in no uncertain words what the hell is going on? It sounds like this is a breakdown of effective communication and assumptions about what people want in their career and what they need. If you haven't explicitly aired these specific complaints I think you should at least give them a chance, which for you, could also give yourself the fastest path to build something…

I was in a similar position once. I was working at a green tech startup, took about a 5x pay cut to work there, but it was something I was passionate about. They had me working on low value BS, internationalization of an old product, etc. Just wasting my time. I don't think they had any idea of my capabilities (despite lots of proof of that). When I finally said "I really want to be challenged here, I'm super capable…

Yeah (in the US, depending on state) plus when you get paid off you get severance, maybe even unemployment. At least you know where you stand. If the bosses are truly assholes, you know where they are. I think it's entirely possible in many cases they just don't realize what they are doing. In another situation they might be truly wanting interchangeable low value programmer, so tell them it's not a good fit anymore, I'll help you hire my replacement, please leave me a good letter of recommendation on the way out, and you get that.
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