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GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

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Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#181

Post by vbezhenar »

1MachineElf wrote: post #169
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

I can't think of any program which works like Nano. On the flip side, both man and less provide vim-style navigation. Isn't man the first program we recommend everyone use? On the flip side, there is GNU info, readline, and bash. The latter two of which sport emacs-style navigation by default, but also support vim-style too. Perhaps where we went wrong collectively was indulging the emacs users such that people like…

man does not provide any navigation. It just feeds its output to PAGER which happened to be `less` on your system.

On a more bare-bones system man can feed its output to `more`. Which does not provide vim-style navigation, at least its GNU version.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#182

Post by pfoof »

forgotpwd16 wrote: post #81
pfoof wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you even use cat to write? I understand dd or echo, but cat by itself? Cat /dev/whatever and a steady hand?

$ cat test > this is a test text file > written with cat > EOF $ cat > test > this is an extra line at the end > EOF $ cat test this is a test text file written with cat this is an extra line at the end But not sure how you modify them. An option will be using other tools but that makes cat incapable of being a text editor .

Right!

>But not sure how you modify them.

Maybe somehow sending escaped "backspace" symbol?

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#183

Post by _Algernon_ »

Aperocky wrote: post #132
p-e-w wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pros of modal editing is well documented Finally! Someone who knows where that elusive data is hidden that actually shows why modal editing is better. Wait, did you forget to link to the study?

Like I said, there's no convincing you. On previous tens of discussion surely someone has came up with something, only for you to dismiss it as gimmicky. I am not going to spend much effort on a lost cause, but quick googling came up with this blog: https://eli-rodriguez.com/en/posts/modal-editing-the-superio... Enjoy moving your cursor around when you edit text, but welcome to the club if I am wrong and you can be c…

Making a claim followed by only providing anecdotes in support just to then immediately hiding behind the "there's no convincing you"...

Impressive.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#184

Post by Hendrikto »

p-e-w wrote: post #128
dig1 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at how other (console) programs on the system work, Vi(m) is more consistent than Nano. ed, sed, awk, readline, even perl... knowing one of them, you know how to use vi. Likewise, know vi, you know how to use most of these tools (sans visual/modal editing abstraction). Also, it follows the Unix spirit of making small programs (in Vi(m) it can be seen as "a small number of key presses") and composing them…

The so-called "Unix spirit" is itself a rather hilarious mistake from the early days of software engineering, when programmers knew essentially nothing about human/computer interaction and foolishly believed that "efficiency" in a mathematical sense translates to efficient workflows. It took many decades of trial and error to overcome this dogma, but today's productivity software all features a massive amount of func…

Integration does not presuppose hard coupling. Different components can integrate and coordinate through standards.

I would argue that having one big app is the one of the worst methods of integration.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#185

Post by kittyn »

elsjaako wrote: post #87
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

I'm an enthousiastic vim user. I think everyone who spends a lot if time editing text and who doesn't use vim (or similar) is probably missing out (including the author of this article). I think vim is really good. But I 100% agree that vim is a stupid default. In almost every context it's going to confuse more people than it makes happy.

“because it’s not mainstream enough”

sounds like a skill issue

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#186

Post by pwpw »

Does anyone have a good tutorial for vim/neovim that they recommended for learning how to use them effectively? I’ve been using vim for over a year for quick edits, but I don’t think I get the most out of it.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#187

Post by npteljes »

sigmonsays wrote: post #149
Havoc wrote: post #58

For people picking up linux for the first time that initial impression is crucial. Dropping people like that into an editor that requires you to somehow know ":q!" is the answer is utterly insane. Same with beginner tutorials using vi. It's straight up bad for linux adoption even if technically superior. Anyone that is a vi fan likely has the skillset to install it themselves - the reverse is not always true.

why do we care about users who want the easy way out?

There's no "we". I personally care, because I think bad UX hurts adoption.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#188

Post by _Algernon_ »

Aperocky wrote: post #173
p-e-w wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any published study comparing performance of experienced modal vs. non-modal editor users on common tasks would be interesting already. Basically, standard UX research stuff. Figuring out how to control for differences in skill etc. is literally the job of people who conduct such research. I mean, there are studies examining how the quality of Git commits is affected by blood alcohol levels, so that doesn't seem like…

Does any such academic study exist for any editor comparison? Since according to you these are "literally the job of people" and "standard UX research stuff". This seems like a classic case of setting the bar arbitrarily high to stifle discussion - I cannot find any, but would love to be proven wrong.

> Does any such academic study exist for any editor comparison?

I don't know, you tell me. You're making the claim that one is superior. The burden of proof is on you.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#189

Post by Sebb767 »

_0w8t wrote: post #177
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

Nano default key bindings are not standard either. They are less different than vi from a typical GUI input controls and having a menu at the bottom of the screen help, but they force the user to get used to yet another convention. I was considering at some point to create a patch to nano to have a simple option to switch to more common bindings or even ask the user on the first run about it. But then I discovered th…

I'm pretty sure that's due to conflicts with default console bindings. That being said, always having a cheat sheet at the bottom makes this mostly a non-issue, even when using something easier as a baseline than vi.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#190

Post by npteljes »

ajuc wrote: post #59
pavlov wrote: post #15

I’m forever stuck with 1980s Turbo Pascal as my heart’s secret place of text-mode editing comfort, and nano is probably the closest thing available by default in most Unixes.

mcedit was closer (and I still use it even though they stopped bundling it with most distributions for some reason). I love mcedit feature that lets you pipe selected text through a custom bash script.

This is really curious to me. I'm also very partial to mcedit, it's often the first thing I install on boxes. And also, my first programming language was Turbo Pascal. Is that maybe why I like mcedit so much?
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