Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal • Hacker News Board

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#181

Post by spamizbad » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #145

> In contrast, children will copy every single action, including the unnecessary ones. The example that immediately springs to mind, in the tech industry, is the "Steve Jobs Asshole" archetype. Steve Jobs was a notorious manager, in that he made heavy-duty demands, did not suffer fools, and was blunt to the point of abusive. But he was also able to filter for talent, cultivate it, and encourage excellence. He wasn't…

Unfortunately, there’s an entire school of thinking that basically boils down to “pro-social behavior is ineffective and slows you down”. Their take is the “creative, selective” Steve Jobs was part of the myth. His real key to success was being able to push people. We are seeing history repeat itself with Elon Musk: so expect a new generation of entrepreneurs who think being a hardass is the key to running a successful enterprise.

Now, to be clear, shepherding great work out of your team is a hallmark of a good manager. But if you don’t even know what “good” is your efforts are in vain and you’d be better offer handing that autonomy over to someone who does. You cannot verbally-abuse your way to greatness.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#182

Post by prpl » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #105

blagie wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.

Exactly. To me, a $500k unnecessary renovation throws more money away than a $70k vs $40k car. At least with the car you are likely getting safety features and extensive sensor suites for driver assist for the money, that have tangible impact on your driving experience. Or Spending 5-10x on a $10k appliance where a $1-2k one would do. These people tend to get the whole set, so it's a good $30-40k worth of kitchen app…

One slight different is that spending on your home will generally add value to it. It may not be necessary, and you may not get a dollar-for-dollar out of it, but it’s added value nonetheless.

I cook a lot, I personally would like a higher quality stove - I’ve killed one before because I (an)use the broiler a lot (it wasn’t terribly old), but I probably would do an NXR or something. maybe in the $2k. Or a used Wolf/viking from one of the people you mention

I’d rather buy a nice oven than a bunch of shit appliances though. People love their air fryers, over the stove microwave, countertop oven, instant pot, etc…

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#183

Post by burlesona » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

gus_massa wrote: post #56

> If a chimpanzee views a person perform a series of superfluous actions, along with one single necessary action, in order to obtain a piece of food, the chimpanzee will skip the superfluous action, and perform only the necessary one. > In contrast, children will copy every single action, including the unnecessary ones. I watched the video, but I'm unconvinced. They tell the kid the box is " magic ". Children know th…

I also wondered about the difference between doing this with young children and adult chimps.

I think it’s fairly obvious that if you gave the clear box test to a teenager or adult and said “get the treat out” they’d look at you funny and then many or most would just reach in and grab it. I think even in the black box, they’d probably look at it real hard and maybe try going straight for the treat after investigating the box a bit.

By contrast very young humans operate in “game mode” almost all the time, and are basically “playing along” with whatever game you put them in. It’s a lot of fun, and often silly.

So my question is, what about juvenile chimps? Do they also operate in game mode, or would they follow the adult chimp behavior of going straight for the reward?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#184

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #143

trasz2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but…

Correct, a G-shock would get the job done better. I always viewed watches as the only mainstream sociable acceptable form of male jewelry. And regardless of which model, generally no more expensive than a woman's engagement or wedding ring, and actually usually cheaper. Plus it does something other than look pretty - tells time & date!

Prestige cars, mega yachts, private jets, and corporations that make rockets and satellites are also male jewellery.

But the article: it's repetitive and slightly rambling and reads like it was written by some variant of GPT.

The point is fair, but it's also well known to class watchers. In the UK nouveau means a gigantic new build mansion full of chrome and glass, a private gym, and plastic and dental surgery. Old means a small country estate, a Georgian pied-à-terre somewhere near the City, tweedy clothing, and perhaps some pedigree dogs. And horses.

Old money tends to underdress - sometimes sloppily - and on casual acquaintance is indistinguishable from the merely middle class.

It's not until you get an invite to the manor house that you discover the ridiculously impractical and expensive Aga stove, the collection of wildly expensive antiques whose prices are never mentioned [1], the relaxed air of charming quizzical bafflement. (Very few of these people are unusually bright or talented. But socially polished - yes.)

The visuals are not the point. Anyone can tweed, but not everyone can tweed like they've been doing it their entire lives and really mean it.

[1] A 17th century silver spoon for £5000? How fascinating!

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#185

Post by lqet » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

> Humans are high-fidelity imitators.

This is true in a very deep sense, and this human desire (let's even call it compulsion) to imitate others can be used to base an entire anthropology on, as René Girard did quite masterfully. For anyone interested, I strongly recommend reading "I See Satan Fall Like Lightning".

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#186

Post by ramblerman » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #145

> In contrast, children will copy every single action, including the unnecessary ones. The example that immediately springs to mind, in the tech industry, is the "Steve Jobs Asshole" archetype. Steve Jobs was a notorious manager, in that he made heavy-duty demands, did not suffer fools, and was blunt to the point of abusive. But he was also able to filter for talent, cultivate it, and encourage excellence. He wasn't…

> In contrast, children will copy every single action, including the unnecessary ones.

That video was super interesting but I'm not sure the conclusion is correct. In the experiment with the children an authority figure (including full medical suit) was put in front of them and told them "do these instructions".

The chimp wouldn't have that pressure. It's not quite the same experiment.

It would be interesting if you put 5 boxes in front of children and told them they had 1 minute to get as many sweets as they could, if they would still follow all the steps.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#187

Post by mozman » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #177

cracrecry wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. There was a time, not that long time ago in which good clocks were expensive and expending 2ks on a good clock was similar to expending 2k on a laptop today, a functional, reasonable decision. My uncle earned a much more expensive Rolex than 2k in a Golf tournament and wearing it nobody believed it was genuine, even a watchmaker c…

I bought a fake "Rolex" in Thailand, for $10. It actually didn't work very well. I guess there's a hierarchy even among the fake.

I bought a $400 fake rolex. Aside from the glass not being sapphire you cannot tell the difference visually

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#188

Post by billjings » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #64

331c8c71 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>$2k Rolex I thought the cheapest Rolex is substantially more expensive. Am I wrong?

Fair point. My numbers are probably off on everything now. Before the 2020s era inflation you could definitely pick up a mens one used for $2k, like a Datejust model for example. Likewise a $70k car is neither particularly rare or exotic now with how much the average car price has been pushed up by big trucks and EVs.

"2020s era inflation" started just this year. And it's, what, 11%?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#189

Post by wellbehaved » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

speakfreely wrote: post #157

osigurdson wrote: post #122

Pure trash. Be yourself, emulate whoever you want (or no one). Do what feels right. If someone looks down on you for riding a bike to work (regardless of your current "status"), #1 they are idiots and their respect and admiration is worth zero and #2 choke them out :). Life is too short for such ridiculous minutia.

Would love to set a 10 year reminder to check in on how this life strategy has worked out.

Yeah. Look where this got Galileo. House arrest for the rest of his life. Bad call Galileo, you should have paid better attention to social cues! /s

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#190

Post by coredog64 » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

fnbr wrote: post #139

trasz2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but…

What’s an example of a watch that’s mechanically identical to a Rolex?

A Seiko SKX (or a spiritual successor) with a regulated NH35 will fall into the same “100m water resistance, accurate to within 10 seconds per day” category as a Rolex for about a 10th of the price.