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Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

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Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#181

Post by amluto »

morsch wrote: post #170
dleslie wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the PNW, particularly here in BC, Gore-TEX was an absolute game-changer for hikers. Throw on a tank top or tee-shirt, then your Gore-TEX jacket, and you could climb basically any local mountain between March and October, rain or shine. Every local hike went from being a moist, uncomfortable affair to being a joy regardless of the weather.

What about rain shedding off your jacket onto your pants? This has totally been an issue for me and in inclement weather I wear (non breathable) rain pants (apparently the right word is bibs). Then again you only say to put on a t-shirt and a jacket, no mention of pants -- I guess that's one way to solve the problem.

You can wear waterproof breathable pants, shorts, or pants that get wet but stay comfortable. Unless you’re biking or doing a similar activity or it’s raining very hard, you probably don’t get that much water shedding onto your pants.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#182

Post by MezzoDelCammin »

jerlam wrote: post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

Actually, bike commuting is ine of the hardest scenarios for GoreTex in my experience.

Biking in general tends to put Your heart rate pretty high. It depends on intensity of course, but a brief 30-60s sprint to overtake someone or clear a traffic light will take You from a comfortable aerobic zone well into anaerobic. That means "a lot" of sweat eventually. Walking/ hiking does that a lot less.

At the same time, on a bike commute You need durability under mechanical stress (backpacks with laptops can get heavy real quick). Aaaand on top of that, ideally it needs to be reasonably cheap (or last for decades) to be economically viable.

Personally, for bikepacking, I found that the only Goretex that works is the Shakedry membrane. This is their most barebones slimmed-down membrane. Super breathable, great water / wind resistance, but it's so ligh You look at it sideways and it tears. Definitely can't wear a backpack with that one.

On the other hand, my hiking jacket is a 3 layer laminate Goretex Pro that I've used for about 8y now with 25+kg backpacks. Great, durable, waterproof, but You are right- it's not breathable enough for bike(unless You open up all the pit zips, which kinda beats the purpose of a waterproof membrane).

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#183

Post by adrian_b »

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #179
sva_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, my Nike goretex shoes already lost their waterproof properties after 1 year of moderate use. I didn't know I could solve this thru Gore. Edit: I checked and bought these shoes in April 2020. I guess I will try to contact them?! The product was "Nike Air Zoom Pegasus 36 Trail GTX Gore Tex". I wonder where I should contact them?

GTX in shoes generally does not last very long. In my experience in about a season or so there are patches/ cracks that let the water in. I guess something to do with the stresses of using a soft membrane meant to wrap around human body to support the weight of said body...

I believe that the durability of Gore-Tex in shoes might depend much more on the quality of the shoes than on the material itself.

I have used Gore-Tex only in shoes, but in various kinds of high-quality shoes (i.e. not cheap), either made by a less known Swiss company, or by brands like Adidas or Asics.

In all cases, I have used daily the shoes for 3 to 4 years until I had to dump them, always due to an excessively worn sole, not because of problems with Gore-Tex.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#184

Post by tomatocracy »

AYBABTME wrote: post #173
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).

I used breathable boots but Goretex long socks (knee high) when doing infantry work in marshlands and wetted wood areas back in the military. It was a winning combination. The boot would get soaked and dry quickly, my feet kept dry. I'd put a lot of foot powder in my socks to avoid sweat ruining my feet. Waterproof boots though are counterproductive.

This is also what I do on my bike. Waterproof socks instead of overshoes are much easier to use and work well for keeping feet warm and dry even when eg the boot gets completely soaked from spray or splashes.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#185

Post by thefz »

jerlam wrote: post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

In my experience mountain biking in central Europe, where most of the summer is dry and not so hot, and the rest of the year is damp and cool, Gore-Tex products work really well in keeping you dry when the outisde air is very humid.

I regularly use a gilet and a full sweater, these work amazingly well and are worth the price.

Besides the breathability, construction is top level for sports gear.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#186

Post by amluto »

selectodude wrote: post #112
soperj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're asking which syllable gets the emphasis.

Neither? It's two words, Gore-Tex.

You can call it two words if you like, but the first one is stressed.

This phenomenon is ubiquitous in English. Try saying “spring roll” or “house cat”.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#187

Post by amluto »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #39

Wonderful fabric for mountain gear. Unfortunately, like Teflon cooking pans, its amazing properties come from a coating with perfluorinated octyl sulfonate, a known endocrine disruptor: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7722801/

Not exactly. Its properties come from PTFE, which is not water soluble. PFOS is a surfactant, like soap. You can’t make a jacket out of it — it’s water soluble.

PFOS was used in the manufacturing process. It’s quite problematic, but it’s actually the end product.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#188

Post by Dah00n »

boc wrote: post #158
_yb2s wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree. The breathability of goretex is extremely poor to the point that I consider it a scam. If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. Gore-tex shells don't breath at all unless you keep up the DWR…

Seems like you’re painting with a very broad brush. Ultralight 3L jackets like the Arc’teryx Alpha SL breath way, way better than a standard rain jacket. I actually A/B tested a standard 2L rain jacket vs the Alpha SL in hard rain while working hard and it was no competition. I was clammy and sweaty in the 2L rain jacket in about 90 seconds. I worked over 30 minutes in the Alpha and never got overly warm, and was tot…

>When you’re mountaineering, sweat is really bad news

Both messages above already agreed that in these situations it make sense. Sounds to me that you are arguing while agreeing :)

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#189

Post by otherme123 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #140
chrisseaton wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).

Maybe for trail running, where you foot are constantly under water and the Gtx keeps the water inside. But for the daily walker in the rain, Gtx shoes are the best thing you can wear (eg the beat a well greased non Gtx Panamas), at least in my experience. Guess I'm at the height of stupidity.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#190

Post by barrkel »

snowwrestler wrote: post #162

I find that most writing about Gore-Tex gets the mechanism of breathability wrong. Often I’ll see references to humidity or air pressure. I also see tons of statements that Gore-Tex can’t breathe if the DWR fails. None of that is correct. Water moves through Gore-Tex via evaporation, and the driver is heat. As long as it is warmer on one side of the membrane than the other, moisture will move toward the colder side.…

You notice this if you wear Gore Tex lined gloves on a motorcycle with heated grips in rain. Your hands get steamed, effectively, and the inside of the glove ends up wet through.
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