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Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

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Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#181
post #178
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Saudi Arabia is key in keeping global energy prices lower by increasing global supply, and is also a key ally in a historically unstable region which impacts those prices. The key to keeping energy prices low for the US is to stop giving away our oil and then focus on shifting our economy to an energy source that can't be manipulated by foreign powers trying to influence our elections.

You seem to have strongly worded opinions, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly you're asking for. Petroleum is ~ 8% of the US GDP, and produces about $1.7 trillion dollars a year in direct economic activity, employing about 10 million folks. Near as I can tell, the US doesn't give away any of our oil at all. It sells it, at market rate, often after doing a lot of value add refining. Some of it goes t…

Well, its a bit tongue in cheek in that I'm not proposing anything really. My overall point is that the US government massively subsidizes foreign-owned oil and gas companies

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subs...

Of course, those are written subsidies. There is the major subsidy of allowing them to drill for oil on the publics land.

Of course, we've massively increased the amount of drilling we've allowed do the drum beat of "energy independence", when the reality is that because the oil is privately owned, no amount of oil drilling will actually make the price of gasoline stable or cheap for consumers.

What we actually need to do is move away from a gasoline based economy, but until then the government should heavily tax exports of oil to discourage foreign-owned companies from exporting it while we have a shortage here. Oil and gas lobbyist have been using their corporate owned politicians in Congress to block moving to sustainable energy since the Carter administration. We need massive investment in sustainable energy and energy efficient transit and manufacturing.

But we wont. The price of gas will go down again. Americans will buy even bigger cars, and then cry when OPEC jacks the price up again.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#182
post #30
post #23

To be clear, the US is the largest oil producer in the world, and is a net exporter of oil.[1][2] (Shale is a large part of that growth in the last decade) The US benefits when oil prices increase. If you want to speculate on the geopolitical reasons for this action, it could be to help the allies of the US by driving oil prices down through OPEC production plans. If you want to speculate on the domestic reasons for…

> US benefits when oil prices increase I’m not sure about that. Generally the US economy benefits from lower oil prices and I think that outweighs any losses incurred by the oil industry. That’s especially relevant now with inflation being such a huge concern.

>Generally the US economy benefits from lower oil prices

Before the 2010s, yes. But not now, not in this era of Shale. It has changed everything.

"Oil prices do have an impact on the U.S. economy, but it goes two ways because of the diversity of industries. High oil prices can drive job creation and investment as it becomes economically viable for oil companies to exploit higher-cost shale oil deposits. However, high oil prices also hit businesses and consumers with higher transportation and manufacturing costs. Lower oil prices hurt the unconventional oil activity, but benefits manufacturing and other sectors where fuel costs are a primary concern." [1]

1. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/032515/how-o...

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this "Realpolitik" was already contested successfully by India ( among others ). Are you saying that this example does not test the rule? Perfect should not be the enemy of the good? I buy your argument, but your example is not good.

> contested successfully by India ( among others ). Yes, also by my native country, Brazil. Shame on us for that. In the end dirty affairs/realpolitik are what things are, not what they should be, right? Up until WWII, "Realpolitik" is what gave us so many wars, so little commerce, so little international cooperation, so much European imperialism, ... So I do agree we need to find ethics in international relations. O…

I thought about your argument and I believe you convinced me. I was wrong. I think I had my head stuck in my ideal version of the world.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#184
post #8

So there is legal immunity for a de facto leader. How about stop selling weapons to murderous de facto leaders? Is there a law to prevent that?

Basically it's up to the people to hold their government accountable and pressurise them to make decent decisions.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#185
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this obsession with 1 or 4 people obscene while millions are ignored. We invaded Libya and left behind a failed state where millions live amid violent gangs, but we spent more ink about 4 Americans in Benghazi than the millions who were affected by our policies. It's almost like we don't care. Why do people write far more about Khashoggi, rather than the millions in Yemen? That should be more than enough reaso…

Hate to break it to you, but we don't care. We never have. "We" being the "enlightened west" in general. Study enough history and it becomes pretty clear. Governments only take humanitarian action against evil when there's a clear threat to their interests (Ukraine), a perceived strategic opportunity (Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya) or there's little/no risk in the confrontation (Somalia/Libya). We have a hard enough time ge…

I disagree. We do care. We just think some things are savable, and some not. That's why there's pressure on Iran now, and Russia now. That's why the west bitches and moans about the US doing immoral shit. Not because it's the worst, but because we think there's a chance they might care. Unlike Saudi Arabia, which we pretty much write off as total monsters.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#186
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to break it to you, but we don't care. We never have. "We" being the "enlightened west" in general. Study enough history and it becomes pretty clear. Governments only take humanitarian action against evil when there's a clear threat to their interests (Ukraine), a perceived strategic opportunity (Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya) or there's little/no risk in the confrontation (Somalia/Libya). We have a hard enough time ge…

I disagree. We do care. We just think some things are savable, and some not. That's why there's pressure on Iran now , and Russia now . That's why the west bitches and moans about the US doing immoral shit. Not because it's the worst, but because we think there's a chance they might care. Unlike Saudi Arabia, which we pretty much write off as total monsters.

So we have had sanctions on Iran for decades because ae actually think they’re more moral than Saudis and will eventually come around, rather than having to do with Saudis being our allies and selling oil cor dollars while Iranians overthrew the Shah?

I think during the Shah times, if Iran was bombing people we’d also look the other way. We looked the other way when Afghanistan did genocidal rapes of Bangladesh in their war of independence…

And in your view btw who are moral monsters — Arabs vs Persians or their governments?

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