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The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

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Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#181

Post by rich_sasha »

jobigoud wrote: post #101
rodelrod wrote: post #44

This space before the colon and other marks in French should actually be a narrow non-breaking space (U+202F) [0]. There's no key for it in the AZERTY layout. This has been a problem since the typewriter age. People having to get on with their jobs coped with it by using a full, breaking em-space. Unless this gets replaced automatically by the word processor, you get horrid typography and misplaced line breaks all ov…

A modern solution is simply to have non-breaking space easily accessible in your keyboard layout for when you need it. In the BÉPO layout this is at SHIFT + space. Especially simple since all double punctuations (:?!; those that require an nbsp before them) are also accessed with SHIFT.

Better still, why not abandon the space as a character, and render the colon with extra space to the left when locale is French?

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#182

Post by rich_sasha »

shakow wrote: post #167
cryptonector wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fail to put a space before a colon when writing in French, what happens next? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would French speakers accept this as a better way to use the colon character? It looks like this rule is based on old typographic considerations. Much like the Spanish Royal Academy's rule that capitalized letters carry no accents (unlike the opposite French rule that capitalized let…

I don't know, what would happen in English if you didn't capitalize the days of the week? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would English speakers accept this as a better way to write the days of the week? No human language on Earth is in a position where it can laughs at others for their idiomatisms.

Is Esperanto clear of exceptions and illogicalisms?

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#183

Post by rich_sasha »

wewtyflakes wrote: post #169
shakow wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, what would happen in English if you didn't capitalize the days of the week? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would English speakers accept this as a better way to write the days of the week? No human language on Earth is in a position where it can laughs at others for their idiomatisms.

I do not think that was their point (to laugh at other languages), but rather, that there may be contemporary situations in which warrant rethinking the idioms of a language. As an aside, I do not think many people who speak english would even notice a lack of capitalization for the days of the week.

> As an aside, I do not think many people who speak english would even notice a lack of

English

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#184

Post by rich_sasha »

cryptonector wrote: post #170
shakow wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, what would happen in English if you didn't capitalize the days of the week? Do people point and laugh? You get disciplined? Or would English speakers accept this as a better way to write the days of the week? No human language on Earth is in a position where it can laughs at others for their idiomatisms.

In English most people wouldn't care. You're going to get in more trouble in French schools for this than in U.S. schools (I don't know about UK schools, or elsewhere in the Anglosphere). My impression is that European culture is a lot more sensitive to these things than U.S. culture.

You'd certainly be corrected in the UK and would count as a regular spelling mistake.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#185

Post by d1sxeyes »

cryptonector wrote: post #168
Kwpolska wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the French rules old, no-longer-relevant, invalid? Why should we change language to appease lazy software developers?

Not "rules", just this rule. It has to do with typographic considerations that apply to old typesetting technologies that are no longer in use. > Why should we change language to appease lazy software developers? It's been done. For example, in Spanish it is no longer the rule that "ch" and "ll" sort as if they were distinct letters (this change was made in 2010) precisely because that was such a difficult rule to im…

In contrast, the Hungarian "cs", "dz", "dzs", "gy", "ny", "sz", "ty", and "zs" all remain distinct, as do their accented vowels. Polish is hybrid, considering digraphs as being 'composed' of single letters (i.e. 'sz' = 's+z'), rather than being distinct, but the accented characters are considered distinct from their unaccented cousins.

This problem has primarily come about because the Catholic church enforced the latin alphabet on languages where a different alphabet might have been more appropriate. Spanish, although more closely related to Latin, still has a few sounds which there's not a good latin character for. There's no (particular) reason (as far as I'm aware) that 'ch' and 'll' became diagraphs, while ñ acquired an accent.

Why should traditions change just because it's a bit more difficult to do things the 'old way'? why do we still bother with capital letters at the beginning of sentences? or speling things with two leters when one wil do, or riting silent leters wen you cant tell the difrens? & i dont think we need apostrofees n e more.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#186

Post by jheriko »

karmakaze wrote: post #25

I didn't realize French was written with spaces before colons. It might be time to lose that space, similar to how we don't double space after period. I'm not saying G.Docs or any editor should dictate how French is written, only being pragmatic if I have to choose between (no space): or unwanted emojis ending up in docs.

the us is fairly unique in the rate it accepts common mistakes into the language. its part of how they diverged from the standard english used in the rest of the world so quickly...

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#187

Post by benhurmarcel »

cryptonector wrote: post #158
keybored wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French aren’t gonna change their language over an emoji picker. :slightly_smiling_face:

They should abandon out of date typographic rules though. As a French speaker, I want to.

If we had he opportunity to simplify some rules in French, it's not the one I'd do first.

How about getting rid somehow of the letter ù which is used for only one word (où)? Or replacing quatre-vingt by huitante (and same for 70 and 90) like in Switzerland? Or getting rid of œ and æ?

But none of it is realistic. We officially changed from oignon to ognon 32 years ago and people still don't know about it...

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#188

Post by mrzool »

cryptonector wrote: post #150
mrzool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As multilingual user constantly switching between 3 languages, that's why I fully committed to the US_intl keyboard layout a while ago and ditched the abomination that is QWERTZ. Took a while to get used to, but overall it has been a very noticeable improvement. One layout to cover all languages, no more constant switching. Edit for clarity: I type "a to get ä and 'a to get à. If I want to type actual quotes followed…

Yes, this. Though I prefer the X11 compose sequence business where you type 'a to get á and so on. X11 compose sequences are a lot more intuitive than the Windows U.S. international keyboard because there's no ambiguities, so, for example, a cedille is just ,c whereas in the Windows U.S. international keyboard layout it's 'c -- X11 for the win here, as the latter is super a) counter-intuitive and b) conflicts with ć…

> Though I prefer the X11 compose sequence business where you type 'a to get á and so on. X11 compose sequences are a lot more intuitive than the Windows U.S. international keyboard because there's no ambiguities, so, for example, a cedille is just ,c whereas in the Windows U.S. international keyboard layout it's 'c

That sounds pretty good indeed. Any idea how could I go about setting this up under macOS?

> Also, if you program or use a shell, then the Windows U.S. international keyboard layout is just unspeakably unbearable.

I have indeed a couple of little, weird problems when working in the terminal. That's inconvenient but still beats switching between 3 layouts 50 times a day.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#189

Post by mrzool »

nier wrote: post #86
mrzool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As multilingual user constantly switching between 3 languages, that's why I fully committed to the US_intl keyboard layout a while ago and ditched the abomination that is QWERTZ. Took a while to get used to, but overall it has been a very noticeable improvement. One layout to cover all languages, no more constant switching. Edit for clarity: I type "a to get ä and 'a to get à. If I want to type actual quotes followed…

That’s quite memorable. On the Mac I have to press option-u and then a, u, or o to get an ä, ü, or ö. Optionally holding the shift key to get an uppercase vowel with the diacritic. option-` is for grave (è) option-i is for circumflex (é) option-n is for eñe (ñ) option-c is for cédille (ç) When you called QWERTZ an abomination I simply had to upvote your comment.

I am on macOS as well and the diacritics I mentioned ("a → ä, `a → à) work out of the box with the "US International PC" layout. If I press ⌥a I get å with my layout.

Re: The plague of emoji insertion in French docs

#190

Post by mrzool »

juujian wrote: post #87
mrzool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As multilingual user constantly switching between 3 languages, that's why I fully committed to the US_intl keyboard layout a while ago and ditched the abomination that is QWERTZ. Took a while to get used to, but overall it has been a very noticeable improvement. One layout to cover all languages, no more constant switching. Edit for clarity: I type "a to get ä and 'a to get à. If I want to type actual quotes followed…

Yup, did the same. And the layout I happen to work with also has a third layer (menu button) that includes äöüß--that was a glorious discovery.

I do you enable the third layer? I don't have a menu button on my Mac.
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