India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN • Hacker News Board

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#181

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #63

mensetmanusman wrote: post #15

Such an awesome accomplishment. Also, it’s interestingly a huge black eye to the CCP: news of this Indian accomplishment will be censored in China, because it proves that nations can progress without forced-sterilization/-abortion/-1-child-policy/authoritarianism/ etc.

Wut, India started from a better state, took same amount of time, to progress 1/5th as much, while still having north korean tier food insecurity. Dooming generations and hundreds of millions of avoidable deaths due to being stuck in poverty for longer than need be. There's nothing to be envious about. Also eliminating rural poverty + building rural infra is the actual hard part that takes time and resources. We'll h…

[deleted]

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#182

Post by janef0421 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #12

brosinante wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't China ( https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l... ) and the USSR ( https://borgenproject.org/tag/poverty-in-the-former-soviet-u... ) do similarly?

China's unprecedented generational explosion into the middle class happened only after Deng Xiaoping instituted market reforms. Economically, China is certainly more socialist than the west, but far more capitalist than it was in the 1970's. Same with USSR/Russia, post-communism.

Market reforms are not intrinsically capitalist.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#183

Post by bergenty » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #43

mensetmanusman wrote: post #15

Such an awesome accomplishment. Also, it’s interestingly a huge black eye to the CCP: news of this Indian accomplishment will be censored in China, because it proves that nations can progress without forced-sterilization/-abortion/-1-child-policy/authoritarianism/ etc.

Why would it be a black eye to the ccp when they’ve lifted twice as many from poverty as India? And far higher growth, gdp per capita, etc. weird comment https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...

I think the idea is we can have both democracy and paradigm shifting changes in a very short time span that hasn’t really been proven out recently.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#184

Post by Neil44 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

Shoue wrote: post #149

damagednoob wrote: post #36

I don't understand poverty statistics. With this news, the UK now has more people living in poverty than India (16% vs 22%?). If it is valuable to judge poverty on relative income, you would think the rational course of action would be mass immigration from the UK to India but that is clearly not the case.

Relative measures are important because it's an indicator of how fairly domestic resources are being allocated. You can be a poor country but have resources fairly allocated among the population, and you can be a rich country and have resources unfairly allocated among the population. It's a good indicator of how well people at the bottom are being taken care of, and the ideal scenario is a rich country with low inco…

That is very interesting. But I think the answer to the parents question about why people are not boarding rubber dinghies from the UK to India is that in absolute terms poverty is not the same in the two countries.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#185

Post by wobbly_bush » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:11 PM UTC

akudha wrote: post #142

wobbly_bush wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real estate will get more expensive due to political greed than any other kind of development. The supply of real estate is artificially constrained by the political class, so any kind of development (say hypothetically manufacturing instead of software) will make it expensive. There used to be a time when new land for building houses was frequently sold by the government in the form of new "colonies", but that has c…

What you are describing is one part of the problem. I have friends who earn in dollars. They can easily afford to buy a couple of apartments every year. They do this and let those apartments sit vacant for a few years, waiting for them to appreciate. When many people start doing this, it artificially inflates the prices.

That can be solved with tax/other laws. Guess who will be most impacted by those laws? Not people with one or two apartments as much, but those who do in large scale - that is again politicians and their helpers who help launder illegal money this way. If there are loopholes in the law, people will abuse it but we have to realize the loopholes are not meant for the layperson but the powerful few who abuse it at much higher scale.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#186

Post by kylehotchkiss » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:11 PM UTC

TremendousJudge wrote: post #92

anthropodie wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those millions who moved to middle class are also helping the layer below them. These lifted households are spending their wealth on house helps, local grocery stores, taxis/autos and a whole lot of other local businesses. This trickle down effect then boosts development in cities where these IT hubs are located. Even more students then want to join these IT companies and enjoy the lifestyle of their seniors thus con…

You seem to be close to the situation. Do you think Indian Walmart is a future inevitability?

Some cities have “Big Bazaar” which is similar to a Walmart (smaller though, the Indian market doesn’t have the variety of brands and products other countries do). There certainly are a lot of other similar stores. A more American thing that isn't readily available is like a Costco, bulk shopping would be pretty tough there, and people are fine to go out on a more regular basis to pick up fresh milk/veggies.

No American big box retailer will ever be built. Indian government doesn’t allow foreign companies to come in and set up shop very easily (at best they can get in with 49% ownership like Starbucks/Tata). Additionally the logistics situation is very different. Less ports, roads between cities built differently than USA, traffic across states is not a right like USA and various restrictions/inspections/fees can occur. It’s worth keeping an eye on IKEA’s expansion specifically in India. They really want to grow the marketshare, they have the right price points, and people seem to genuinely like and want them around. But lots of artificial hurdles which i suspect are caused by local traders/shops knowing how much business IKEA will take from them.

Indian Amazon is approaching the utility of American Amazon and are pretty good about taking advantage of the existing couriers and air cargo which takes care of some of the interstate logistics I mentioned. The funniest part to me is that every individual item you order comes with it’s own delivery person, there isn’t yet much work to consolidate packages. The current generation is growing up with Amazon though and I anticipate many future improvements.

I also see a dead comment in this thread saying India doesn't have malls... I've never seen more malls in an area than I have in big Indian cities. A lot of them are pretty good!

Source: many extended visits to india

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#187

Post by scarmig » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #111

Aunche wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also have 300% debt to GDP compared to 84% for India. You're comparing the total debt of China with the national debt of India.

India doesn't have "private" corporations which are just an extension of the state. All the mega banks in China are indistinguishable from the state - you're looking at 100% of debt to GDP on their balance sheets alone.

I think the relevant figures here would be how much of each countries' banks' balance sheets are de facto liabilities to the state. I can buy that Chinese banks incur more liability for their government than Indian banks do for theirs; I don't buy the idea that China is 100% liable for its banks' balance sheets while India is 0% liable for its banks' balance sheets.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#188

Post by ganeshkrishnan » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

gandalfgeek wrote: post #140

I grew up in India in the 90s, saw first hand the transition from the disastrous socialism of the Nehru era to open markets, capitalism and deregulation. (The end of "license raj".) It started with PV Narasimha Rao as PM and Manmohan Singh as his finance minister in the early 90s. Thankfully Singh himself had a fruitful tenure as PM later. All it took for India to take off was the shackles of govt control to come off…

>both state controlled (Doordarshan) that broadcast maybe 5-6 hrs per day.

We just had one channel DD1 It would start in the evening around 7 pm I think with this tune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-7JmGB9BRA

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#189

Post by rajeshp1986 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

aerovistae wrote: post #13

Interested in comments from anyone who lives in India or has experience/familiarity with it as to whether reality on the ground matches the rosy picture painted in the article.

I can tell my experience. Not just me but everyone I know moved from poverty to lower-middle or middle class in just 20 years. When I was 5 years old, we were living in a village with no electricity. Having 2 square meals was a luxury only some house holds had. Many farmers & daily wage workers had only enough to eat one meal a day. My family's biggest fear while I was growing up was what will happen if my father felt sick and couldn't work. I am thankful those days are behind us.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#190

Post by FooBarWidget » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #15

Such an awesome accomplishment. Also, it’s interestingly a huge black eye to the CCP: news of this Indian accomplishment will be censored in China, because it proves that nations can progress without forced-sterilization/-abortion/-1-child-policy/authoritarianism/ etc.

This makes absolutely no sense given how everybody in China knows that western countries are richer. China is not North Korea, there is no information blackout. The average Chinese knows a lot more about, say, the US than the average American about China.

Chinese policies are meant to solve Chinese problems (whether they are successful is a different discussion). The government is in the business of producing results, ideology is secondary.