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Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

ourworldindata.org

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#181

Post by nemo44x »

vkou wrote: post #143
nemo44x wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha that’s great! Hopefully we continue to see these numbers as increase as a leading indicator of a wealthy and well fed society.

No, hopefully we can see these numbers stabilize at some long-term sustainable level , whatever that is. They aren't at that level at the moment, with large parts of modern agriculture more similar to a kind of mining - resources are extracted, with insufficient replenishment. The thing with mines is that they are eventually exhausted, and stop producing.

We can also invent and engineer new tech that makes more production sustainable.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#182

Post by thegrimmest »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #169
thegrimmest wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to engineer this balance. The ones we need we keep; the ones we don't, we don't. This is basically bioforming.

I agree, and we should probably understand it before we change it. It was already engineered by natural selection long before we gained the capability to alter it. Now we are in the process of destroying it by accident as a byproduct of thoughtless growth. If we want to survive we should understand it and then carefully cultivate it for maximum performance.

I agree that we shouldn't destroy value, especially by accident. My original point was that having this conversation in engineering terms is the only sensible way to have it.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#184

Post by virgildotcodes »

imwillofficial wrote: post #176
mandmandam wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your perspective, you just made a smart comment that adds wider context on this issue. From mine, it's something of a cosmic horror that people can think like this and be proud of themselves. We are wreaking havoc on the Earth and all life on it; strip mining it to the bone for the shallowest purposes. And some people have this strange glee about it... It's Lovecraftian to me. Like cultists worshipping death and…

I do not equate animal lives to human lives. I am fine with the death of billions of animals to keep humans fed. This is their job. This is the way of nature. We’ve just streamlined it a bit

Humans are but one species of animal.

We may like them better, given that we are them. We may like our families more than strangers as well. That does not mean that a machine that used unfathomable cruelty to concentrate the rest of humanity into a slurry for the pleasure of our family members would not be a horror.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#185

Post by astroalex »

pvaldes wrote: post #13

Lets take in mind that there is a problem to compare two groups when one group is much easier to measure than the other. The error interval in the mammal biomass should be much higher. The actual real values are probably not so extreme. ... I see, is just megafauna. The most competitive groups (rodents and bats) are deliberately excluded. The title is incorrect then.

Where are you seeing that this statistic is only about megafauna?

I know the article talks a lot about megafauna extinction, but the specific statistic I posted does not mention this, at least that I can see.

https://ourworldindata.org/mammals#wild-mammals-make-up-only...

I think the title of this post should be edited if it is indeed misleading.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#186

Post by astroalex »

pvaldes wrote: post #31
deathanatos wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly the article might not be credible, but can you cite the relevant text from the article, so that the rest of us can quickly verify your claim? I'm not seeing where in the article this is stated.

whales, dolphins and seals are also excluded. > "biomass from marine mammals – mainly whales – is not included" They discuss specifically about megafauna and large terrestrial mammals in most paragraphs and figures.

In the specific section that I took this statistic from, whales seem to be included: https://ourworldindata.org/mammals#wild-mammals-make-up-only...

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#187

Post by sokoloff »

DFHippie wrote: post #172
edflsafoiewq wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I can't grasp the number of humans either.

You can grasp 270kg/600lb, though, right?

Think of it as “a car every four years for every person”.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#188

Post by O__________O »

Regardless of what humanity beliefs or justifies, while unlikely, sincerely hope for our shake that we never run into more advanced life form, including true artificial intelligence — since in my opinion, our actions will likely require explanation and struggle to find such an explanation given how intelligent we claim we are.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#189

Post by myshpa »

rcarr wrote: post #94
dqv wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is just too much social resistance to overcome. We're really only on the second wave of veganism right now. I can't say exactly when the first wave "ended", but I'd say the second wave started to roll in after 2010. But in this second wave, there is a lot of culture being developed that I believe will sustain a third wave. Whereas the first wave had a bunch of early adopters who had very odd food habits (i.e.…

I honestly think this is going to have the opposite effect of what you think it will. People outside of metropolitan areas are sick to death of “new traditions and practices” and “high profile” names. They see it as another bourgeoisie vs proletariat battleground. They do not want “new food culture” they want the existing culture but more environmentally friendly. You aren’t going to pry the burgers out of their hand…

You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime.

I suppose with sufficient vegan base the political will to remove (huge) subsidies for meat/dairy industry will materialize.

It simply doesn't make sense that meat burger/milk is cheaper than plant-based burger/milk now.

You need 100x more land to produce same amount of calories (beef vs. peas). Removing subsidies will drive prices of meat/dairy up, and plant based food prices will go down (as seen now with increasing competition and growing vegan movement).

With higher prices of meat/dairy many more people will switch.

As things are now, we need to remove subsidies for all unsustainable stuff, meat/dairy/oil/plastics/agri poisons ... we can't pretend forever that (negative) externalities don't exist.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#190

Post by ggm »

I highly recommend Mike Hannah's book "Extinctions Living and Dying in the Margin of Error" which puts modern extinction rates into deep time historical context.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/extinctions/A4B6AA42F40...

He's also written in the conversation:

https://theconversation.com/humans-are-driving-animals-and-p...

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