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Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

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Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#181

Post by kzrdude »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #151
bornfreddy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The packages make sense for the apps that don't change frequently, but browsers don't match this description.

It's the opposite of the way things should be. Package managers should have the most utility for applications that update frequently, because isn't the raison d'etre of a package manager to make updating programs easier? Some distros manage to get it right. I haven't had any trouble using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's packaged Firefox.

The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#182

Post by Kwpolska »

krn wrote: post #22
overshard wrote: post #5

I used to use Ubuntu for everything and was very happy in the massive Ubuntu ecosystem with a .deb for everything till I was forced to use Snap a few releases ago for installing even some basic utils I used on a daily basis. I then had Snap constantly hang on installs and just break for no apparent reason and waste my time debugging it. It didn't "just work" anymore. Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch…

> Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch took me a lot more work to get set up but once it was it's been pretty invisible, which is how I like my OS to be. I think that Fedora Workstation[1] is a #1 alternative to Ubuntu in terms of smoothness and ease of use. And if .deb is a requirement – then simply Debian. [1] https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/

Another good alternative could be openSUSE: https://www.opensuse.org/ - also pretty smooth, with user-friendly configuration tools, and no snap nonsense. WSL users might also be interested in using that for their distro instead of Ubuntu.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#183

Post by MichaelCollins »

kzrdude wrote: post #181
MichaelCollins wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the opposite of the way things should be. Package managers should have the most utility for applications that update frequently, because isn't the raison d'etre of a package manager to make updating programs easier? Some distros manage to get it right. I haven't had any trouble using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's packaged Firefox.

The package repository should be the off-the-shelf items in the grocery store, while installing separately is the big-ticket and custom made items. Installing apps separately doesn't scale very well, but it makes sense to just do it for firefox and certain others. IMO.

Firefox is "big ticket", but not "custom made"; one firefox package or installer should suit everybody fine. I think package managers can do very well with Firefox if the package is managed well.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#184

Post by Avshalom »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #142
hellcow wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, you need to shutdown firefox, open a terminal, run ‘sudo snap refresh’, wait for it to complete, then re-open firefox. Agreed that the process sucks :)

Does running a standard `apt update/upgrade` update the snap packages, even it they're in use?

apt doesn't touch snaps at all afaict

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#186

Post by tetha »

curt15 wrote: post #137
compsciphd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Flatpak updates work pretty much the same way. The new version is installed into a parallel directory and takes effect the next time the application is restarted.

So I'm not nuts. My work laptop recently changed from Fedora using flatpak to Ubuntu using snap and with flatpak, I'd get a couple notifications "Hey, XYZ was updated" and on the next reboot, it was new. With snap, I have to shutdown the application, update it in a console and relaunch it. Meh.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#187

Post by sumitgt »

compsciphd wrote: post #45
overshard wrote: post #5

I used to use Ubuntu for everything and was very happy in the massive Ubuntu ecosystem with a .deb for everything till I was forced to use Snap a few releases ago for installing even some basic utils I used on a daily basis. I then had Snap constantly hang on installs and just break for no apparent reason and waste my time debugging it. It didn't "just work" anymore. Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch…

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Agreed!

Snap can't even update snap-store because it is running in the background.

There is no way for a non-tech savvy person to even figure out how to get past that error.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#188

Post by sebow »

22.04 LTS is probably gonna be my last go-to linux distro release for workstations and all-around. Going back to fedora after this goes EOL since the "snappy" shit, pro advertisements, and other things haven't stopped. I'm not mad or even annoyed because it fully expected it, but still somewhat disappointed.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#189

Post by tesseract2 »

Kwpolska wrote: post #182
krn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch took me a lot more work to get set up but once it was it's been pretty invisible, which is how I like my OS to be. I think that Fedora Workstation[1] is a #1 alternative to Ubuntu in terms of smoothness and ease of use. And if .deb is a requirement – then simply Debian. [1] https://getfedora.org/en/workstation/

Another good alternative could be openSUSE: https://www.opensuse.org/ - also pretty smooth, with user-friendly configuration tools, and no snap nonsense. WSL users might also be interested in using that for their distro instead of Ubuntu.

I used to use opensuse around 2010, and had very pleasant experience with it. Things just worked, and their Yast tool was very handy. I used to joke that opensuse is the Mercedes of linux distro :).

I am wondering why it isn't more popular. Is there any sentiment/experience people would like to share about this distro?

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#190

Post by echelon »

thomaslord wrote: post #116
compsciphd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland.

Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic.

Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

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