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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#181
post #101

he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.

PIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.

Last time I got put on a PIP was for refusing an entirely unreasonable request to be on call, and leaving my work phone at home during that period.

I started making plans to resign pretty soon after being put on the PIP.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#182
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy

Taxes are the membership fee of society

There are many public finance options to fund society in more equal way than taking a persons labor. If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else

Personal I am supporter of the Henry George Single Tax model to fund society instead of income based taxation

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#183
post #78
post #36

I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.

European in general. My wife works for a biotech company in Austria which was recently aquired by an american company and it's so funny to hear about their efforts to adapt to EU law and culture. Most of their training material is still unchanged from their US branch so there are things they list as benefits for all employees like - 3 Weeks paid vacation (we get 5 by law) - Health insurance (you know the drill) - 3 w…

Now do salary and taxes

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#184
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the company but they are commonly used to ensure managers are not just firing someone that they are "pissed off" at, people are cynical about them but they are designed to ensure managers have to document the poor performance, and have notified the employee they are under performing... I have seen companies that lack this process and witnessed employees getting very positive feedback from managers even in…

Interesting factoid from Europe: at least in Germany, you are effectively unhirable if you are in a PiP. You actually have to warrant that you are not, before any company of any size will consider hiring you, and of course lying about that would be a firing offense. I get the logic, but as an American I was surprised… I was never PiPed but I too would have assumed it was better than the alternative. Not always!

I never had this issue when working in Germany, and I was actually on a PIP at one company while successfully finding a new job to move to.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy

you'll get older and things will happen to you. at some point, before you die unless you die in a catastrophic situation, you won't be capable of working anymore. it's just facts of life.

Dont worry my eating habits and lack of exercise will likely ensure I will die in that catastrophic situation you speak of

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#186
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting factoid from Europe: at least in Germany, you are effectively unhirable if you are in a PiP. You actually have to warrant that you are not, before any company of any size will consider hiring you, and of course lying about that would be a firing offense. I get the logic, but as an American I was surprised… I was never PiPed but I too would have assumed it was better than the alternative. Not always!

Interesting, in most states in the US it would be illegal for an employer to reveal to another employer that the employee was on a PiP, I am surprised that is allowed in the EU with all the privacy laws. The US has lots of anti-black listing laws in almost every state that would make something like that very very illegal

Its also not legal in Germany, in fact, its pretty impossible to legally give a bad reference.

HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#187
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European in general. My wife works for a biotech company in Austria which was recently aquired by an american company and it's so funny to hear about their efforts to adapt to EU law and culture. Most of their training material is still unchanged from their US branch so there are things they list as benefits for all employees like - 3 Weeks paid vacation (we get 5 by law) - Health insurance (you know the drill) - 3 w…

>>(we get 1 year for 80% pay, first 6 months full pay, then 5 years protection against dismissal) That is just crazy.... I would hate to be a chidless person in your country, I can not image the extra amount of work that get places on people that do not have children... As someone that will never have a child I like the fact that the US does not force this kind of parental leave on employers, I know that will be very…

For you, there will be no impact beyond having to sign the "Congratulations!" card for your colleague!

A company (an employer) rents the time and skills of employees for a particular task. It's not a pool of work that employees must struggle to achieve regardless of circumstances - it's the employer's responsibility to hire enough staff.

For example, my paternity leave (20 days or 40 half days) would not impact my colleagues. Some of them can opt into overtime, but the same labor laws also define how overtime works - as an employer, you can't order someone to work extra hours unless described in their contract (and limited to the maximum specified by law, with mandatory regular breaks). Overtime is also paid at 150% or 200% of your regular pay, depending on the day of the week and hour of the day (e.g., weekends and nights obviously cost more than daytime rates). Very few jobs are even allowed to work on Sundays.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#188
post #146
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norwegian civil court, the loser pays the legal bills for both. It may seem a bit harsh, but it does prevent frivolous law suits. For work related cases, if you are in a union, they will foot the bill in most cases.

I wonder if this makes court cases a pretty high stakes game for even the smallest of issues? Interesting concept all the same.

At least in Finland it still makes things quite ugly from cost perspective. It is not uncommon to read about cases where costs are in tens of thousand for real-estate. Probably one of the more common things to take in court.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never ever ever seen a PIP used in a positive way. It’s almost always been a way for petty toxic management that resented an employee not tolerating an abusive environment.

Of course PIP got a huge potential to be abused, it’s like a weapon in the hands of management. I’ve never been under a PIP but if I were I’d urgently look for work.

That's what I did - once I was put on a PIP, I knew it was time to jump before I was pushed.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry what extra work? you know the company is able to hire more people right?

You know companies have budgets right? you can not just "hire more people" and remain profitable, no profit no company. Companies are not charities created to employ people. So sure if only 1 person is off on leave most likely another person could be hired But 5 years of protected leave..... What percentage of the work force is going to be out on that? Also since it is very hard to terminate someone in the EU, what h…

>Companies are not charities created to employ people.

And employees aren't charities required to do things unpaid because there isn't the budget.

It works both ways

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