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Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

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Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#181

Post by manimino »

javajosh wrote: post #155
raydiatian wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah you pointed out something special here. It’s like those unsung Russian sub captains who didn’t start the nuclear apocalypse because they had an intuitive understanding between faulty and genuine threats. You can’t explain why you know something you just know it. Besides, Magnus genuinely has never seemed like the guy to get petty and up and throw a fit, he’s lost plenty of times without doing such.

>never seemed like the guy to get petty and up and throw a fit More than that, Magnus is a very fierce competitor and he doesn't withdraw from tournaments. He's 31 and this is his first withdrawal AFAIK.

Magnus cares deeply about the image of chess as a sport. He has done a great deal to popularize chess. Cheating threatens the legitimacy of chess itself.

It makes sense that Magnus would take a stand on it, even if he risks losing face by doing so.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#182

Post by bee_rider »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #22

The fact that an athlete in a competitive sport was allowed to partake in an event even after admitting to cheating not only once, but twice, is outrageous in itself.

I'm slightly confused about the relationship between chess.com and these tournaments. If he gets caught cheating at a FIDE tournament, they could do whatever they want -- ban him for life, whatever, it is up to them. If he gets caught cheating on an online game, whether it is chess.com or counterstrike, who cares? It is an unranked online game (or the ranking is tied to some account gamerscore thing).

Unless their chess.com scores feed into their FIDE ELO scores or something?

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#183

Post by mzs »

One of the reporters adds a detail that several from the WSJ article means 6 (which we all would have immediately known had chess.com simply published on their site instead of leaking the 72-page report):

>The report made no conclusions about Niemann's in-person games. But it also flagged his play from six over-the-board events, saying those merit further investigation.

https://twitter.com/andrewlbeaton/status/1577380477807300626

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#184

Post by spuz »

Madmallard wrote: post #55

How is this person like at all able to even compete over the board? Seems like this type of history and even a history of cheating at all should just be a permanent nix.

He is a genuinely very good player. That also makes it potentially very hard to detect if he has indeed cheated. His current coach has been quoted in a past interview saying how easy it would be to cheat undetected if you were already at GM level. You only need the engine to guide you in 2-3 moves to swing a game.

2013 Interview with Max Dlugy: https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-shoe-aistant--ivanov-forfe...

Also, before you ask, "if he is already at GM level, why does he feel the need to cheat?" the answer is that the stronger players and athletes often feel more inclined to cheat because they have such high expectations of themselves. Past cheating scandals in sports have proven this.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#185

Post by pclmulqdq »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #173
throwawaysleep wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I constantly cheated in school. I got caught once and the penalty was a 0 on the test and a talking to. And only because I was a cheating noob. The benefits were in the thousands and thousands of scholarship dollars. I cheat now in my employment. I work three full time jobs remotely and do the bare minimum in each. The risk is getting fired (and if I only get fired from two of the jobs, I am still ahead o…

Selling your labor to multiple buyers and delivering acceptable work is not cheating.

Technically, they might sue you if you represent that you are working exclusively for them, which is a clause in most of these contracts. Still, not illegal.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#187

Post by [deleted] »

NaturalPhallacy wrote: post #133
nordsieck wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I'm not a fan of permanent Scarlet Letters for .... I think I may go so far as to say anything . What's your opinion of the National Sex Offender Registry?

> What's your opinion of the National Sex Offender Registry? People are on it for simply peeing in public. And teenage minors in a relationship sending nudes to each other due to a lack of "Romeo and Juliet" laws. Not much is black & white.

[deleted]

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#188

Post by soperj »

threatofrain wrote: post #179
throwawaysleep wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I constantly cheated in school. I got caught once and the penalty was a 0 on the test and a talking to. And only because I was a cheating noob. The benefits were in the thousands and thousands of scholarship dollars. I cheat now in my employment. I work three full time jobs remotely and do the bare minimum in each. The risk is getting fired (and if I only get fired from two of the jobs, I am still ahead o…

Being a TA and discovering that about half the class was engaged in a singular cheating ring (that does not mean the other half is free from cheating) changed my perspective as to how cheating should be dealt with. In general I feel that if enough people are doing the "wrong" thing, then punishing most of the population is probably an even worse move. Failing individuals, marking their transcript, or kicking them out…

Then why even have rules about it. You're basically screwing honest people.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#189

Post by largepeepee »

mzs wrote: post #165
largepeepee wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why would they ever share full details of confidential agreements? Ie, their secret sauce.

Cause they shared Dlugy's private emails last week? Cause they leaked this report to the WSJ before putting it on their site? Cause Rensch worded the non-denial denial specifically like that?

Like I had mentioned previously, why would they reveal their entire hand?

It makes sense to show the relevant part of their upcoming case and who knows what kind of agreement they had with Dlugy and with lawyers before deciding to reveal that snippet.

Like in poker. Just because they showed one card, doesn't mean they are now obligated to show their hand.

Re: Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times

#190

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

somenameforme wrote: post #67
MAXPOOL wrote: post #19

The next 'move' for cheaters is to use chess computers in a way that passes 'Chess Turing Test' and makes cheating indistinguishable from normal human play under analysis. When there is money in the game, there is incentive to cheat. > The report says dozens of grandmasters have been caught cheating on the website, including four of the top-100 players in the world who confessed. There are probably smart cheaters alr…

Cheat detection isn't done by only by move analysis, but by an extensive profiling of a person and games based on many factors beyond even just the moves. For instance one of the easiest ways to catch a weak player cheating is move times. Such a player will have no idea whether a move is trivial or works only due to an exceptionally precise and lengthy series of counter-intuitive calculations that no human could do w…

> Niemann was playing without any significant effort or tension, in spite of playing in a game where he was outplaying the world champion.

Carlsen was making mistakes. That wasn't his best game at all. Are we sure we aren't talking of this because someone's ego was hurt?

> And after the game he was unable to explain his own ideas, proposed ideas that were simply losing,

That doesn't mean anything at all

> referenced games that did not exist,

That did exist close enough to the period he mentioned. Remembering the position and analysis is necessary, remembering when exactly this position happened and even between whom exactly is utterly useless.

> and was generally (relative to the class of player here) clueless.

He didn't make a clueless impression to me. But I'm not Carlsen's fanboy whos accusations can cloud my own reasoning. If I was, I'd probably believe that Niemann is a proven cheater and would look for facts to confirm that bias.

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