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Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

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Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#181

Post by 6stringmerc »

Invictus0 wrote: post #176
6stringmerc wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend recently got what he thought was a great gig with an engineering firm - turned out it was more of a cult - rah rah sessions, after work bowling, softball - and they weren’t shy about shunning anybody who didn’t want all in right away. He got bullied and saw others bullied too - we figure it’s why they prefer to intern pipeline and hire and retain - a lot easier to brainwash when young. I mean it’s not a bad…

Name and shame please.

Not until the payout is in the bank, but yes there will be a reckoning for their unethical wickedness toward innocent well-meaning employees who just didn’t want to drink the kool-aid.

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#183

Post by ekianjo »

bruce343434 wrote: post #177
ekianjo wrote: post #75

Thats a very epicurian piece. Yeah dont do things you hate, love yourself the way you are and dont have big dreams that you hope to achieve, you are already perfect. No thanks.

I disagree with your take. The article is exactly about finding what you ACTUALLY WANT to achieve and then not getting distracted with eating frogs.

> finding what you ACTUALLY WANT to achieve and then not getting distracted with eating frogs.

That's precisely the bad piece of advice. Nobody knows what they really want, most of the time, because people change, you change, and the environment changes. It's better to have a system that makes you do something to progress in your skills or your ongoing projects every single day, than coming up with a goal since you have no idea how to get there or that is even worth pursuing.

If you are not seeing any progress, the problem is not with the idea that you need to progress every day, rather a bad technique you are applying.

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#184

Post by Atheb »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #148
nicbou wrote: post #63

The topic is nice, but above all I thoroughly enjoy the writing. I feel like I get a lot more done precisely because I don't like to eat frogs. I sleep until I'm rested. I don't touch my computer until I've had tea on the balcony. I work on what feels right, when it feels right, for as long as it feels right. If the weather is nice, I'll hop on my bicycle and forget about work. But when something sparks my interest,…

What is your occupation where you get paid to work only on what feels right, only when it feels right, for only as long as it feels right, with leeway to hop on your bicycle and forget about work whenever you want? Cause I am interested in this line of work. At least if it pays enough to live comfortably.

I have a similar schedule, although a slightly more organized. I try to be available from 9 to 4, atleast through emails if I'm not in my office, because that's when other people also work and might need me. I often leave mid-day to go running or come in late because I went bouldering in the morning. If I don't feel inspired to write or work, I often instead go for a walk and read books tangentially to my research topics. Then some days I'll work 12 hours straight.

I mostly work when it feels right, yes, and do something else when it doesn't. But I am doing my PhD and (in Canada) it absolutely does not pay enough to live comfortably.

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#185

Post by banannaise »

istinetz wrote: post #76
vanderZwan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that you're talking about a game hyper-optimized to be addictive, and while I can't speak for your specific case, in general having an addiction usually involves said addiction being a coping mechanism to fill some kind of hole in someone's life, or avoiding the pain of some unresolved trauma. Which is not at all the same thing as being proof of humans inherently being lazy and needing self-help gurus to fix t…

>Except that you're talking about a game hyper-optimized to be addictive When I stopped playing dota, civ took it's place, then reddit, then tiktok, etc. I've resorted to hard blocking a long list of apps and websites. I've seen other people on hackernews having the exact same problem and stumbling upon the exact same stack of solutions. My point is, it's not the one game, it's the entire internet. >said addiction be…

> When I stopped playing dota, civ took it's place, then reddit, then tiktok, etc.

All of which are also hyper-optimized to be addictive.

Perhaps part of the problem is that you live in a world surrounded by things that are hyper-optimized to feed your addiction rather than bring you joy?

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#186

Post by discordance »

jongjong wrote: post #56

This seems to be a major epidemic nowadays. I suspect that mechanistic, meaningless, purely mimetic pursuit of success has some pretty negative consequences on society. I suspect it might explain why so many people are interested in engaging in politics (or company politics) and zero-sum value extraction schemes instead of just adding value... They're not interested in the process at all, only in the outcome; financi…

Reminds me of that delayed gratification experiment with the kids and chocolates, except instead of eating the 2x reward the kid will then hold off for even more (for their whole life)!

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#187

Post by banannaise »

istinetz wrote: post #37

I strongly disagree with the author. What brings me pleasure is playing strategic computer games. I was addicted to playing dota. I was playing 12-16 hours a day, which left no place for socializing, career, family, even basic self-maintenance suffered. Anything meaningful, art, self-improvement was cut. It's a disgraceful, shameful life. The meaning of life is not the blind pursuit of pleasure. We are humans precise…

You know what's funny? DotA involves a lot of frog-eating. A lot of it is a slog, and a lot of it is really frustrating. You hadn't decreased your frog consumption. You were just eating the wrong frogs.

It seems that now you're eating different frogs, and you're feeling happier and more fulfilled. You might even be eating less of them now, and that might be part of what's rewarding.

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#188

Post by slfnflctd »

bsenftner wrote: post #97
6stringmerc wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend recently got what he thought was a great gig with an engineering firm - turned out it was more of a cult - rah rah sessions, after work bowling, softball - and they weren’t shy about shunning anybody who didn’t want all in right away. He got bullied and saw others bullied too - we figure it’s why they prefer to intern pipeline and hire and retain - a lot easier to brainwash when young. I mean it’s not a bad…

I wish I could say this is not normal, but I see this everywhere : employers want cult-like fiefdoms, and many are successful creating them. These companies are filled with young developers who completely drink the kool-aid and become no less than fan-boys for their oppressor, as anyone that has had more than 1 job would look at the environment as darkly Orwellian.

Alternatively, some may prefer a basic safe haven from all the chaos out there, because their temperaments make too much rapid change intolerable.

Past a certain point, this sort of neurodivergence can be severely detrimental for no good reason, but I do understand why sometimes people accept a non-optimal situation for a while just to have some stability and simplify their lives.

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#189

Post by jrochkind1 »

istinetz wrote: post #171
jrochkind1 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think addiction is it's own thing -- which is not about a lack of pleasure either. The main thing I think is missing from the OP (which I liked very much) is discussion of the concept of meaning . (and perhaps social connection). I think what most "frog-eaters" are missing is meaning, not pleasure. People will gladly do hard things that seem meaningful. I think addiction is primarily about a lack of meaning (and so…

>I think OP is really talking about a lack of meaning, control, and social connection in our lives. That is indeed a much more defensible thesis. But to do anything meaningful, you need to eat a bunch of frogs - to build a rocket, you need to call and compare suppliers, manage accounting, etc. If you avoided all of that annoying stuff, you would find yourself, years later, with very pretty blueprints and no rocket.

I'm not sure about that. Or at least I'm not sure it requires any one person to spend more than a small portion of their time doing anything that feels like eating frogs.

But mainly, I think the basic thesis is about how we diagnose our dissatisfaction. The very common way is what you seem to be suggesting: You need to get better at doing hard things, it's your fault for being lazy. How do you expect to be able to do anything worthwhile if you are so bad at doing hard things? That is the common perspective.

The OP's suggestion (tweaked a bit by me to have meaning) is that this is all wrong: If your life is mostly composed of things that are unpleasant, lacking meaning, control, and social connection, of COURSE they will be hard to get done and burn you out, and it's not your fault. The solution, if you can find a way to do it, is to increase the meaning, control, and social connection in your life -- tasks will not feel as unpleasant if in a framework of meaning, control, and social connection.

The problem is not your lack of discipline, it's that you are not getting enough meaning, control, and social connection in your life. (Granted, it's not necessarily simple what to do about this, especially when it's how our society is set up).

But I'm curious, if you feel like sharing (or if not these are just rhetorical for other readers, no problem), as to your personal anecdotal experience with the problem with computer games. (which I'd call an "addiction" from my experience, but you may or may not). How did you get out of it? Or are you out of it or still struggling? In what ways has it been about discipline and trying harder? In what ways has it been connected to meaning, control, and social connection in other parts of your life? Has the theory that your problem is with discipline and procrastination and just not trying enough been useful to solving the problem? If not, are you willing to consider a different theory/framework? What things in your life give you meaning, control, and social connection, do you feel your life is full of those? (I do not, personally, I'm having problems with the lack of those and am not sure what to do about it).

Re: Excuse me but why are you eating so many frogs

#190

Post by frodetb »

presentation wrote: post #72
frodetb wrote: post #41

> > We humans are, deep down, lazy and gluttonous creatures. If left to our own devices, we will do nothing but eat Pringles and watch Netflix. The only way we can escape our indolent nature is to exert our higher faculties over our base instincts. > First, humans are not “naturally” lazy, because humans are not “naturally” anything. ... We’re different today not because our genes changed, but because our culture cha…

That’s only if you consider them faults. Preserving energy by not doing things you don’t find rewarding isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

I'm making no judgement call here, with respect to the "cardinal sins". I'm only highlighting that we've worried about committing them since forever, unlike what the author is suggesting.
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