Blocking Kiwifarms • Hacker News Board

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#181

Post by wyager » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #140

ffwszgf wrote: post #53

Cloudflare can do whatever it wants but I wish they were honest about it. The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. If anything the owner has been monitoring the thread more proactively and making sure people follow the law. This is included not allowing the creation of new accounts and reminding everyone that their data will be turned over to the authorities should it…

> The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. I don’t believe you have the same information as cloudflare and assuming good faith I believe them when they say there are legitimate threats to body and person. They have a responsibility to their investors to insure that their brand isn’t used to coordinate violence. Dont just shrug your shoulders while a small group invite…

> I don’t believe you have the same information as cloudflare

Yes he does - the activity of KF posters is public.

The amount of bullshitting going on here is insane. People are just making things up wholesale.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#182

Post by hkt » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

Not working with fascists (yes, really) makes me much happier about cloudflare. They have their problems but they're not totally amoral.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#183

Post by dmix » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #140

ffwszgf wrote: post #53

Cloudflare can do whatever it wants but I wish they were honest about it. The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. If anything the owner has been monitoring the thread more proactively and making sure people follow the law. This is included not allowing the creation of new accounts and reminding everyone that their data will be turned over to the authorities should it…

> The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. I don’t believe you have the same information as cloudflare and assuming good faith I believe them when they say there are legitimate threats to body and person. They have a responsibility to their investors to insure that their brand isn’t used to coordinate violence. Dont just shrug your shoulders while a small group invite…

Then they should provide at least some basic details. Trusting them to be honest is silly. This sort of thing needs transparency.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#184

Post by OrangeMonkey » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

phillipcarter wrote: post #47

orf wrote: post #24

Pretty crazy turnaround. I really liked the pretty clear and reasoned abuse policy[1] they put out recently, and I don't envy the position they are in. On one hand, yes, this specific site is terrible. But they are trying very hard to not become the arbiters of what is terrible and what isn't terrible, and I respect them for that. It's not an easy line to take, and other companies like Google and Facebook have not ma…

I genuinely believe that it's entirely possible to be seen as very neutral and also just ban nazi sites, troll farms, etc. because you choose not to do business with them.

Its so weird how everyone we don't like is a nazi.

Your opinion appears to be popular though. Through enough pressure we have successfully removed ddos protection from a site that people on here hope gets ddos'ed.

One day, this conversation and this thread will be remembered. How there was a period where everyone celebrated corporations silencing individuals or allowing mobs to ddos them. What happened to our internet.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#185

Post by austenallred » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

Icathian wrote: post #40

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

The notion that government should be in charge of effectively eliminating speech we don't like so that private companies don't have to is _far worse_ than the current state of things.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#186

Post by xboxnolifes » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #97

serf wrote: post #41

>The policy we articulated last Wednesday remains our policy. >have our cake and eat it too. I don't get this corporate reverse speak. They literally went against the policies stated on Wednesday and then plainly say "But this violation of that policy doesn't reflect on our policies overall." I get that Kiwifarms is hated, that doesn't make black turn to white and up turn to down. Cloudflare reneged on everything the…

As I remember the policy they posted had exceptions for sites that were dangerous/etc. I think what they did today is completely consistent. What I DON’T get is why they didn’t think the site was dangerous last week. When I read their policy it seems to clearly state they wouldn’t work with a group like kiwifarms, and yet they posted a whole post explaining why they were. I agree it’s a flip-flop, I guess I see it fr…

I think Cloudflare did think it was a dangerous site, but they would really prefer not having the responsibility of being the arbiter of what can and cannot be hosted, as well as all of the negative publicity that comes with being so. At the same time, I believe they believe that current legal process surrounding how things like this are handles are so woefully underdeveloped that turning a blind eye is not being neutral, it's being irresponsible.

Taking downs sites like this hurts the view of infrastructure neutrality, so I'm sure it's not done lightly, even when someone goes against their policy.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#187

Post by schleck8 » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #151

Cyberdog wrote: post #49

They muffed it. They were proving to the world how reliable they could be and repairing the damage from the Stormfront debacle, and again they just showed how prone to caving to pressure they can be. What a joke. I will never use CF for anything I want kept online in the face of angry people.

For those not in the know what makes the StormFront situation such a debacle and how is it similar?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_(website)

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#188

Post by slothsarecool » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

ffwszgf wrote: post #53

Cloudflare can do whatever it wants but I wish they were honest about it. The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. If anything the owner has been monitoring the thread more proactively and making sure people follow the law. This is included not allowing the creation of new accounts and reminding everyone that their data will be turned over to the authorities should it…

Just adding some light to the escalations; there were bomb and shoot threats over the last few days. The userbase on the site upped the tone of their "jokes"/threats after the last blog post and thats what caused the final suspension.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#189

Post by Cyberdog » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #151

Cyberdog wrote: post #49

They muffed it. They were proving to the world how reliable they could be and repairing the damage from the Stormfront debacle, and again they just showed how prone to caving to pressure they can be. What a joke. I will never use CF for anything I want kept online in the face of angry people.

For those not in the know what makes the StormFront situation such a debacle and how is it similar?

Both times, people organized a social media campaign to try to get CF to drop services for a site they disliked, and both times CF first refused in the interest of free speech, safe harbor, let law enforcement handle it, etc, then flipped like a switch and dropped their services when the mob didn't go away fast enough.

Now you can hate Stormfront's message (I do), and you can hate what people are allowed to say and do on Kiwi Farms, and in that light you can feel that CF's actions are just fine. But just be aware that if your site becomes the next pariah of the internet some way or some how, CF is prone to drop your services as well.

And it's their right to do so, of course, but the way they're saying stuff like "The policies we articulated last Wednesday remain our policies" and that this is a special case are rather ridiculous. How many more times will this happen before it stops being a particularly special case?

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#190

Post by ketzerei » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 10:56 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #122

Icathian wrote: post #40

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

On the one hand, I would have supported Cloudflare in continuing to provide service to Kiwifarms as someone not employed there if that was their conviction. On the other hand, If I were the CEO, Owner, whatever of Cloudflare I would have cut ties with kiwifarms a long time ago on the grounds the site promotes truly immoral and reprehensible content and I wouldn't want any resources I control going toward helping them…

No post body was provided.