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I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

going-medieval.com

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Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#181
post #126
post #99

The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional woo…

Yes and this is to this day the Swedish word for Saturday: lördag, from "lögardagen". Same etymology as laugardagr.

Well, laugardagr is the etymology, isn't it?

The modern shapes of this weekday name are still used in the scandinavian languages, and Icelandic, Finnish and Estonian.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#182
I found Katherine’s Ashenburg „Dirt on clean” book a nice read on how perception hygiene evolved over ages. It definitely reads as popscience, but for uninitiated ignorants like myself it was pretty sufficient. I see the author cites one of her other books in [6] as well.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste? afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about... (happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it, but that that itself was an amalgam of the cultural stratification that was sometimes already there. Multiculturalism turned monstrous... sad.

> Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it

Here is an extremely harsh critique of that perspective, from an upper-caste scholar of Indian history

https://thewire.in/caste/caste-history-postcolonial-studies

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#184
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a ton we do know. From literature/art to archeological excavations. What do you think 'we' know? Is 'knowing' even a group activity? It is not of course, we can only know what we personally verify. Now you can say that you are familiar with what an archeologist has written about what he found, but it is another thing to look at the sources for yourself and see if you concur with the conclusions. I'd be int…

In West Europe at least you get ecclesiastical records from the early 16th century onwards. In it are usually the names of the ones baptized, the parents and sometimes the ones witnessing (often the godmother/father but not always) Futher records to piece together their lives are tax records, registries (like doing inventories for the government) and you have guilds and orders who wrote things down. From simple bookk…

> My own ancestors in the 17th/early 18th century died from 6 different deceases and floods and harsh winters. There were “poor hunters” , hunters who kept out the poor from the village.

I am amazed you were able to deduce the above, via the use of ecclesiastical records, tax records, registries, etc. As an aside, what is a "poor hunter"? You write the term as if it a type of profession, but could it be that they lived off the land? Genuinely interested to hear more.

I agree that knowing is akin to a programming language, and that being able to test the methodology others describe brings it in line with the scientific method. This is personal verification.

History is assuredly NOT like this - it is an art form, a pastiche of bits of info that may (or may not) be authentic. History is re-written by the victor, and was likely a biased account in the first place! Moreover, we apply our modern way of thinking and interpretation onto what evidence we have. It's an interpretative act - what does this evidence evoke in you?

Professional historians are no different - they are just empowered to write the history we are taught today. And, of course, all history can be interpolated from a specific position - eg communist, feminist, capitalist - etc.

As I said, the history we are given/find is what is expedient, primarily for the governance structure. If that is not enough and you are personally interested, you can dig deeper. In that case you still don't know, but you will find a reflection of yourself. It won't be something outside of yourself that is in some way independently true. That personal analysis (personal story) has its own value, but its not that 'we know' about the historical world.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indian norms and culture emphasizes on moving away from materialism and advocates for distribution of wealth. Greed is frowned upon and actively discouraged in a society. Wealthy are encouraged to perform rituals and festivals and distribute their wealth. This is also a bog standard description of Christianity and a bunch of other religions. There isn’t anything special about India here. > India is the only civiliz…

> This is also a bog standard description of Christianity and a bunch of other religions. I never said India is special in this regard. >Bullshit. Just the history of England and France alone are packed full of wealthy and privileged people focusing their life on the pursuit of enlightenment (spiritual, artistic, and/or scientific) and giving up pre-arranged lives of power and wealth. Name 2 kings or monarchs who did…

That is the great thing about Hinduism as a religion, that it does not preach one true dogmatic doctrine, but love of the universe. Buddhism is not too far from that either.

Still the teaching can be great but what about practice and where is it going now? Are Hindus becoming less tolerant of other religions? See for example: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-02-16/india-...

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#186

Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world. I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. As an Indian, it was practically mandatory for each and every individual to take a bath at-least two times a day. Additionally the following customs were very prevalent till recent times. 1. Washing legs after coming home from outside. 2. Washing hands, face and legs befo…

> Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world.

Is it? "Non-western history" more accurately portrays the history of the rest of the world?

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s shocking how incongruent your views are with the text from the book (see sibling comment). Do you just selectively choose which parts of the book to believe or do you not believe peasants were any substantial part of the population and are therefore not worth caring about?

Quoted post unavailable.

What an incredibly weird way to respond to a request for a source.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#188
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood stuff does not preserve? Other furniture does. And even then, they need iron bands to hold them together. Also, rain barrels.

This wood tubes do not use metal or nails, are made from just one piece of wood. When I was a child we had a big ree, one day my grandffather brought a family of wood workers , they cut the tree and madfe a ton of wood stuff from it, including big and small "tubes" , the small ones are used for backing or as containers, big and small spoons, other wood stuff I don't remember. But it was all curved, no nails or glue.…

I appreciate you explaining this. I'm not an expert on the history of baths. I may be wrong but I still think the tubes you're describing are the exception and not the rule.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good. Page 68: > In ancient times, distinction was made between several different categories of farmers. There were those who cultivated their own land, those who had it cultivated by wage-earning laborers, and those who leased their land to 'metayers', farmers who paid rent in kind, in this case half the harvest and crop. There were few big landlords, and the largest estates nearly all belonged to the king, tha…

> Lest we think these ancient peasants ever actually had it good before the foreigners showed up They sure as hell had it much worse after the invaders, looters and religious fanatics wreaked havoc in the region for 1000 years.

Do you see how far you've moved the goalposts? You start out claiming things like food being plentiful and cheap for everyone, yet now it's "it was better before at least".

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. In India, Every village was in the vicinity of a water source. Every village had a temple, with a large pond. Massaging with oil…

> In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. Your statement reeks of colonialist attitudes of seeing natives of other lands as some sort of brutes and degenerates living in destitution in poverty. Your statements reek of nationalism and revisionist history, viewing the past through black-and-white-and-rose tinted glasses,…

The original phrasing could be worked on but it's not so far out as you say either.

> passing blame for current problems

Humans think we're special but we're still slightly more complicated networked state machines. This means the issue of metastability, where a pathological state is entered and maintains even with the triggering stimulus removed, due to sustaining effects such as fitness criteria given rampant corruption, is real. Control and dynamical systems theory is as applicable to human systems as it is to traffic networks or distributed systems.

This isn't to say current problems are solely because of past inequities but worth recognizing that once entered into, exiting by solutions which entail solving challenging coordination problems are extremely difficult to obtain.

> black-and-white-and-rose tinted glasses

I know next to nothing about Indian history but what they says sounds plausible even if causality for present is more involved. I have at least heard of the famous Indus Valley Civilization and its emphasis on baths, scientific precocity, exceptional levels of egalitarianism, pacifism and influence on subsequent Indian civilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_civilisation#Post...

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