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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#181

Post by creato »

mcphage wrote: post #88
Thorentis wrote: post #66

What is Github worried about? That Copilot might suggest some code that checks for a "gender" variable being only one of two values? Utterly absurd that we've now reached this point. I already had plenty of reasons to boycott Copilot, now I have another one.

> What is Github worried about? That Copilot might suggest some code that checks for a "gender" variable being only one of two values? Perhaps Github is worried about a backlash if it suggests code that allows for more than 2 values.

Or the backlash if it suggests code that only allows for two values.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#182

Post by jhanschoo »

onionisafruit wrote: post #146
fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

Those aren’t the only options. You can just let it suggest what it is going to suggest. Copilot is a product for adults who should be able to comprehend what machine learning is. Anybody who throws a fit about it will only be exposing themselves as a fool.

Not every country where Microsoft is doing business in has the same mores as the western world.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#183

Post by magicalist »

nomilk wrote: post #16

> Copilot crash because the word “gender” A metaphor for our times.

>> Copilot crash because the word “gender”

> A metaphor for our times.

Social media amplifies an innocuous, extremely low stakes occurrence into a heated discussion because it happened to misstate the facts (nothing is crashing here) and focus on a hot button keyword ("gender" is only one of many blocked words)?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#184

Post by aaomidi »

TeeMassive wrote: post #175
fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

Pick 95% of your users, not a hard choice.

They have. 95% don’t give a shit tbh :)

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#185

Post by nonethewiser »

mlyle wrote: post #163
nonethewiser wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. Why did you suggest THIS as an example of what hes talking about? He doesn't indicate that he disagrees with this case. Furthermore,that sounds like a problem of having incomplete training data. Regardless, manually tweaking a model points to a failure in the process somewhere.

> Why did you suggest THIS as an example of what hes talking about? He seems to be pooh-poohing the entire idea of "eliminating bias" in AI. So I felt it was important to * point out that there are clear cases of bias in AI no matter where you stand on gender * move on to explain a closely related case (using historical speech about race could be offensive) * use the lesson to show that using historical speech about…

I don't think your example is indicative of what he opposed.

If you can't effectively train something from existing data then cherry picking results according to different values isnt going to fix it. Your example has quietly shifted from facial recognition of different races to speech about different races. I cant even be sure of what you're talking about other than the fact that you will oppose criticism of imparting political bias into models.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#186

Post by aaomidi »

davoneus wrote: post #166
mlyle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

I call complete and utter BS. This is in no way different than disabling a word procesors autocorrect when a writer uses the term gender in their novel. The programmer should be able to use whatever the hell terms they want to use in their program. If the customer base doesn't like it that's their right. But it's not the right of the damn language parser programmer.

I would suggest before freaking out publicly to go read about the tool and what it does.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#187

Post by aaomidi »

agileAlligator wrote: post #174
mlyle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

> if someone strongly wants to be referred to in a particular way, the polite response is to respect their wishes Would you also respect the wishes of a schizophrenic person, if they say much the same thing? If they say that they are actually an alien from outer space, would you play along?

So how and why do you jump to this extreme?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#188

Post by staticassertion »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #160
onionisafruit wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren’t the only options. You can just let it suggest what it is going to suggest. Copilot is a product for adults who should be able to comprehend what machine learning is. Anybody who throws a fit about it will only be exposing themselves as a fool.

> Copilot is a product for adults [...] If you didn't meant "should be" (for which I'm not willing to take any position), no, Copilot is not a product for adults [1] [2]. [1] https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t... "A User must be at least 13 years of age." [2] https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t...

A minimum age for accepting terms of use isn't the same thing as a target demographic.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#189

Post by aaomidi »

nonethewiser wrote: post #150
camdenlock wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a zealous push by a small but extremely vocal fringe to impose their very particular worldview onto emerging AI/ML models like this. They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. Proponents view it as some kind of obvious universal good, and are confused when anyone else is appalled…

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. It is quite literally creating bias.

How is not suggesting stuff related to gender creating bias?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#190

Post by lmm »

mlyle wrote: post #142
camdenlock wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a zealous push by a small but extremely vocal fringe to impose their very particular worldview onto emerging AI/ML models like this. They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. Proponents view it as some kind of obvious universal good, and are confused when anyone else is appalled…

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

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