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Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

carwow.co.uk

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Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#181

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #145
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your post assumes that when government creates money, it causes inflation, and when private banks create money, it causes no inflation. No such distinction exists. Most money is created by private banks.

I know most money is created by private banks. But that is stable (it is assumed by ceteris paribus). If a government decided to stop taxing then that would be something new.

Is a good assumption that money created by private banks more stable than government created money? what economic mechanism provides such guarantee and what is the evidence?

Private banks used to be able to print their own currency completely: in one country each bank would have different money that coupd be redeemed for gold, and wasn't backed by the government. That was very unstable.

We basically stopped taxing multinationals after the end of cold war, we do have something new.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#182

Post by vel0city »

wil421 wrote: post #76
analog31 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>> I hate that it's being used as an argument against cyclists: "get off the road, you don't pay road tax". This of course also ignores that most adult cyclists also own a car. Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. Income taxes cover a fair amount of road construction. The county bike paths have a fe…

> Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. Not true for a lot of states. Property tax is not used for roads. Georgia pays for roads using gas taxes and road use fees like registration (tolls contribute a very small amount). Florida is similar but they are much more toll heavy. Alabama is similar as too. A…

It really depends on the road in question. I've absolutely voted for city bond projects paid for by property taxes which paid to redo intersections and sections of roads maintained by the city. There are county roads which are maintained by the county which gets most of its funding from property taxes, sales taxes, and vehicle registration taxes. Sure, some funding for some of these projects also come from the state's budgets which is often backed by gas taxes, some funding is from federal sources often by gas taxes, but some of it does come from my property taxes.

Then there are state roads, which are almost entirely funded from state and federal (gas) taxes, and federal roads which are almost exclusively funded from gas taxes.

On an average day the roads I personally drive on are probably at least 50% funded from property and sales taxes paid by my neighbors and me. Most of my miles driven are almost exclusively on streets managed by my city. For my neighbors commuting deeper into the city driving on a US highway, its probably closer to 5-10% coming from property and sales taxes.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#183

Post by timellis-smith »

ehnto wrote: post #163
makomk wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thick, heavily reinforced roads with stabilized foundations generally have much nicer surfaces to cycle on than narrow cycle paths though, at least around here. Probably because a lot of the deterioration is caused by weather rather than traffic and the cost reduction is mostly through having lower standards and accepting more deterioration.

I'd take a rough separated cycle path over a shared car road any day.

Depending on what type of bike you have. On a mountain bike, anyday. On a road bike with paper thin tyres that easily puncture, maybe not so much.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#184

Post by lini »

faichai wrote: post #19

Everyone always seems to jump from general schemes (road tax, fuel duty) to Orwellian tracking (GPS everywhere). Seems like a simple scheme of mileage tracking and net charge tracking would do. You then have an overall energy use / mile figure that you can use to price each mile so people who buy more efficient cars are rewarded, and then charge by total number of miles, so people who do fewer miles pay less.

Too many unknowns with the mileage solution. The most obvious for me is travelling abroad - travelling by car between EU countries is not uncommon. Another issue is that the mileage of the car is not very hard to modify. In Eastern Europe, buying a second-hand 10 year old car, imported from Germany, is almost funny because most seem to be around 90-100 000 miles (140-160 000 km), while looking for the same make and model in a German auto website will show most cars have double the mileage.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#185

Post by vel0city »

tzs wrote: post #174
belorn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bicycle and pedestrians could be exempted from a road tax based on fairly simple assumption: the wear and tear is minimal compared to a car. It wouldn't even surprise me if the wear and tear is so small that it can't even be measured. But I could be wrong. It would be interesting to hear if heavy bike/pedestrian roads have higher road maintenance than those that are used lightly. My guess would be that the major wear…

> bicycle and pedestrians could be exempted from a road tax based on fairly simple assumption: the wear and tear is minimal compared to a car. It wouldn't even surprise me if the wear and tear is so small that it can't even be measured. That is the case, which came as a surprise to me. For things like the road bed, where the force from the surface is going to be spread out more, I'd expect the car to do more damage b…

Sure, the contact patch is a good bit smaller on a bike than a car, but people don't usually weigh 5,000lbs.

I'd much rather get run over by average person on a bicycle than get run over by a car.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#186

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lettergram wrote: post #56
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assuming inflation is caused by an increased money supply; not the material food shortage we are seeing Doesn’t matter. Fiscal taxation (spending) reduces (increases) aggregate demand directly. No need for monetary transmission channels.

Except this taxation is supposedly going directly to spending on regular road maintenance. Which injects the funds directly back into the economy. Money supply isn’t changing here. Even if it were, demand isn’t being reduced. They’re just forcing you to spend it on roads.

> this taxation is supposedly going directly to spending on regular road maintenance

Totally orthogonal. Spending is stimulative. Taxation is tightening. That the two are traditionally bundled is political convenience. We can rail against the spending bit as inflationary. My narrow point is that calling out tax increases vis-à-vis inflation is inchoate.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#187

Post by efaref »

semanticist wrote: post #86
gpmcadam wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination. Revenues gathered via road tax have a provision for older/more polluting cars so you pay less the newer your vehicle, essentially. Some of the money is used to fund the maintenance of highways, though. Local roads are funded by council tax, so this probably dispells the anti-cycling argument because presumably the cyclists do pay council tax (unless they're on motorways which is another issue.)

> Some of the money is used to fund the maintenance of highways, though. Only in the sense that some of all tax money is used in that way - VED just gets pooled with all tax income, none of it is 'ring fenced' for any specific purpose. That's why the idea of 'road tax' is so annoying, since it implies it's to be used for a specific purpose.

"Road tax" is a _tax_ you have to pay in order to use the _road_. It's the most natural name for it, which is why people call it that.

Despite the words they use, it's not a vehicle tax: you can own a vehicle without paying it as long as you declare that you will not use the vehicle _on_the_road_ (a.k.a., make a Statutory Off Road Notification). It's a tax for using the roads. A road tax.

That the government don't ring-fence it to use on road maintenance is irrelevant.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#188

Post by bagels »

tzs wrote: post #174
belorn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bicycle and pedestrians could be exempted from a road tax based on fairly simple assumption: the wear and tear is minimal compared to a car. It wouldn't even surprise me if the wear and tear is so small that it can't even be measured. But I could be wrong. It would be interesting to hear if heavy bike/pedestrian roads have higher road maintenance than those that are used lightly. My guess would be that the major wear…

> bicycle and pedestrians could be exempted from a road tax based on fairly simple assumption: the wear and tear is minimal compared to a car. It wouldn't even surprise me if the wear and tear is so small that it can't even be measured. That is the case, which came as a surprise to me. For things like the road bed, where the force from the surface is going to be spread out more, I'd expect the car to do more damage b…

This analysis based on tire pressure seems faulty. If you place your hand on a bike tire, you do not experience thousands of pounds of force.

To estimate the pressure exerted on the road, you want to compare vehicle system weight/tire contact area. Velocity also plays a role.

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#189

Post by efaref »

martin-adams wrote: post #7
matsemann wrote: post #2

There is no "road tax" in the UK, is it? It's a fee for polluting, not using the road. I hate that it's being used as an argument against cyclists: "get off the road, you don't pay road tax". This of course also ignores that most adult cyclists also own a car.. Norway have the same issues now. Almost all new cars are electric. You don't pay purchase tax / vat when buying it. Pay less on toll roads. Cheaper to use. Et…

It's very odd they used the term Road Tax. It's always been known as Vehicle Tax for the very reason you've pointed out. Hence why you don't need to pay tax to ride a bicycle on the road. The other area they are losing out not mentioned in the article is Benefit in Kind tax for EVs used as company cars. At some point, that will also need to end and be more in alignment with ICE vehicles.

You also don't need to pay it to own a vehicle. You are allowed to own a vehicle without paying this tax as long as you promise not to drive it on the road (SORN). So by that logic it's not a vehicle tax either.

Also, bicycles are vehicles. So surely they should pay Vehicle Tax as well?

A more accurate name would be the "Using a Motorized Vehicle on the Public Road Tax". Let's abbreviate it by dropping all but the last two words. :)

Re: Electric Cars – fuel duty and road tax: how to replace £35B annual revenue

#190

Post by bobthepanda »

wil421 wrote: post #76
analog31 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>> I hate that it's being used as an argument against cyclists: "get off the road, you don't pay road tax". This of course also ignores that most adult cyclists also own a car. Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. Income taxes cover a fair amount of road construction. The county bike paths have a fe…

> Indeed, here in the states, cyclists pay for the roads that we use. For instance most local roads in cities and counties are paid for with property taxes. Not true for a lot of states. Property tax is not used for roads. Georgia pays for roads using gas taxes and road use fees like registration (tolls contribute a very small amount). Florida is similar but they are much more toll heavy. Alabama is similar as too. A…

At the state level, sure, but local roads are paid for by local governments using local general taxes, no? A random suburban residential street is not usually getting gas tax money.
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