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Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

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Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#181

I had to use oral antibiotics about a year ago for reasons that could have been avoided. I was pretty upset about it precisely because it probably wreaked havoc on all the beneficial gut microbes that I had built up over the years.

Have you had any lasting effects?

I've been prescribed a "fairly serious" antibiotic for a skin condition that has been plaguing me for several years (I've gotten like 5 different diagnosis and tons of different Rx). I'm otherwise incredibly healthy, so this antibiotic scares the shit out of me and I have yet to start taking it.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#182
post #175
post #161

This article is mostly cliche popsci trash that isn’t worth reading. Good for a game of logical fallacy bingo. The only interesting development seems to be the methodology but that only gets a passing mention. The rest is basically fearmongering. > In humans, for example, gut bacteria influence how the immune system responds to pathogens and allergens, or interact with the brain, affecting mood. Ok. But what does tha…

Whats scary is that we have more and more civilization diseases and we have no idea whats causing them beside guesses. Worsening of the environment we live in impacts us in ways we cannot even imagine. Scary is that we cannot go back, coz its financially impossible for most.

Cities were historically unhealthy, etc, etc, as well. Yet people kept moving to them. So "most people can't afford to [leave civiliation]" is far from new. Perhaps the life everyone has been fleeing to get to cities was never what you think it is for most.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. The negative symptoms of lactose intolerance is exactly due to lactose being able to reach the gut and making the microbes there flourish by digesting lactose, creating large quantities of gas and other metabolic byproducts that cause flatulence, diarrhea, etc. People don't spontaneously become lactose intolerant just because they stopped eating…

Honest question: I grew up on a farm in former USSR. We milked cows daily, when I was a kid. Back then, I never knew about lactose intolerance but to be fair, this wasn’t a topic discussed. Considering I know nothing about this, and you seem like you do, are there any studies that looked at links between lactose intolerance and fresh milk produce? Reason I say “fresh” is because we never refrigerated the milk. In the…

Fermented milk is lower in lactose because some of the lactose have already been broken down by microbes in the fermentation process. https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20030530/kefir-helps-la...

Lactose intolerance in many cases also doesn't have a clear cut threshold nor is it common to be hypersensitive where a single drop of milk causes projectile vomitting. Many people who are technically lactose intolerant (as in they don't self product lactase in adulthood) can consume some amount of dairy without any symptoms. Otherwise dairy products such as milk, yogurt, and ice cream would not have existed in most of Asia.

https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(87)...

>"However, when lactose loads of up to 12 g are fed, symptoms can be minimal or absent." >"Tolerance to yogurt, acidophilus milk, and other microbe-containing dairy foods has been suggested and is thought to be due to either a low lactose content or in vivo autodigestion by microbial β-galactosidase."

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#185
post #161

This article is mostly cliche popsci trash that isn’t worth reading. Good for a game of logical fallacy bingo. The only interesting development seems to be the methodology but that only gets a passing mention. The rest is basically fearmongering. > In humans, for example, gut bacteria influence how the immune system responds to pathogens and allergens, or interact with the brain, affecting mood. Ok. But what does tha…

Why is it “scary”? Nothing in this article established any cause for concern.

I think when people see a difference in modern life versus traditional, and that difference was unexpected and unintended, that in itself is cause for concern. I don't need to believe claims about how important the gut biome is to the brain etc. But I would be surprised if the there weren't some consequence of the difference, and it seems like wishful thinking to suppose, as you do, that the consequences are benign.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#186
post #161

This article is mostly cliche popsci trash that isn’t worth reading. Good for a game of logical fallacy bingo. The only interesting development seems to be the methodology but that only gets a passing mention. The rest is basically fearmongering. > In humans, for example, gut bacteria influence how the immune system responds to pathogens and allergens, or interact with the brain, affecting mood. Ok. But what does tha…

No post body was provided.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#187
post #121
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guessing that this means there are a lot of confounding variables other than gut biome (environment, diet, genetics, etc) that are very difficult to isolate to prove causation, as opposed to correlation.

Gut biome being one of the most promising area of research, whose earth-shattering potential is about on par with the sheer complexity of the problem. If you thought ML was difficult, try modeling a human being's digestive tube from mouth to anus down to the cell: welcome to a category of problems where climate and gravity are the "simple" ones. On the other side of that space though, potentially the promise to incre…

We are a symbiote.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#188
post #175
post #161

This article is mostly cliche popsci trash that isn’t worth reading. Good for a game of logical fallacy bingo. The only interesting development seems to be the methodology but that only gets a passing mention. The rest is basically fearmongering. > In humans, for example, gut bacteria influence how the immune system responds to pathogens and allergens, or interact with the brain, affecting mood. Ok. But what does tha…

Whats scary is that we have more and more civilization diseases and we have no idea whats causing them beside guesses. Worsening of the environment we live in impacts us in ways we cannot even imagine. Scary is that we cannot go back, coz its financially impossible for most.

> Whats scary is that we have more and more civilization diseases and we have no idea whats causing them beside guesses.

We do have some good mechanistic hypotheses, but most reviews fail to describe them because a lot of research is hand wavy. However, things are slowly reaching mainstream.

Let's consider type 1 diabetes (T1D), which is a common autoimmune disorder where beta cells in the pancreas get destroyed by your own immune system. T1D was rare a century ago, and we know from patient records that incidence increases rapidly whenever a society becomes industrialized. For example, take the Karelia region split between Finland and Russia. People on both sides of the border have the same genetic background. However, children on the Finish side have 10x more incidence of insulin autoantibodies [1]. Microbiomes on both sides are actually very different, with Russian children resembling ancient non-industrialized ones.

The immune system is essentially a huge distributed memory where individual cells recognize small protein or lipid fragments as self or foreign, and then collectively decide whether there is an infection in the particular microenvironment they are exploring. We know T1D typically begins because the immune system recognizes a particular insulin chunk, the amino acid sequence SHLVEALYLVCGERGFF, as foreign. In other more complex autoimmune disorders this part is less clear.

It turns out that many gut bacteria mimic that particular insulin chunk [2]. That probably gives these commensal bacteria the ability to survive and avoid immune responses, and it is a flag of the symbiotic relationship these bacteria have developed with higher organisms in the last 100 million years. Now, the bacterial ecosystem of a modern gut has a lot less diversity than it should and therefore it is very fragile. We don't know exactly what happens before T1D, but one possibility is that these bacteria grow too much in abundance and therefore initiate autoimmunity as T cells found in the pancreas of T1D patients can't distinguish between one protein chunk from these bacteria and insulin.

There are similar patterns in other autoimmune disorders like multiple sclerosis. This patent aims to edit bacterial mimics that cause autoimmunity using a CRISPR system in a pill [3].

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4950857/ (Figure 1)

[2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.11.22274678v... (Extended Table 1)

[3] https://patents.google.com/patent/US11224621B2/en (see e.g. Example 4)

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course it’s obvious that we’re not carnivorous our ancestors didn’t eat meat and always used to go to the pharmacy to get their iron and B vitamin supplements

Plenty of both iron and vitamin B in plant-based food. You really believe we hunted big game so much? With what? Sticks and stones? How did we catch them with our weak legs? How the hell did we skin them or eat their raw flesh? Cooking wasn't a thing for a long time. And why don't we eat the animal meat raw? Don't you love it when you see the dead, rotting carcas all open and blody? I sure don't. And neither would yo…

> You really believe we hunted big game so much?

I mean there’s proof we hunted dinosaurs to extinction, so yah, we hunted down all the big game. Indians hunted bison, most everyone hunted elk and deer, humanity grew up on meat.

Edit: Eskimo hunting freakin’ whales, every Nat Geo special on tribal peoples show them hunting for daily meat, arrowheads and napping knives and spears found in ancient caves…

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#190
post #45

Pretty much every culture around the world 100 years ago had some staple fermented food. Nowadays, a lot of people in western culture at least outright refuse yogurt or other fermented foods like saurkraut or pickled cabbage that used to be staples in these people's ancestor's diets a few generations ago. People are becoming even lactose intolerant. You have to fertilize your microbes so to speak and eat these sorts…

Zero added sweetener, straight Greek yoghurt. Absolutely sublime.

To the typical North American diet it tastes incredibly foreign because the US of A is drenched in sweeteners.

But unsweetened foods just taste beautiful once you get used to them.

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