Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#181

Post by drewcon » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #155

another_poster wrote: post #109

Individual states’ pay transparency laws are already applying upwards pressure on salaries across the country. My company has multiple groups in different states including Colorado, and in anticipation of needing to post salary ranges for our open positions in Colorado, my group (with no positions in Colorado) preemptively bumped up everyone’s salaries to the midpoint of their pay bands to avoid anyone becoming frust…

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life.

If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#182

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

nomilk wrote: post #163

lotsofpulp wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beginner microeconomics courses teach that for the best allocation of resources, a market must have price transparency. How else are market participants supposed to ascertain the movements of supply and demand curves?

> How else are market participants supposed to ascertain the movements of supply and demand curves? The problem is jobs aren't homogenous, so comparing salaries is meaningless, not only for applicants but also for the company itself. Imagine you find 10 people whose resumes look similar on paper, but after you interview all ten you realise there are some you'd hire in an instant, others you think are just okay, and s…

Hence a salary range. No one is forcing anyone to pay everyone the same, even if it is the same job title. The most important part of these laws is actually just the minimum. People need to know which business and employers to avoid and which to go towards. Sorting job listings by bottom of the pay range can help them save time.

In any case, for any marker, the more real time information, the better.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#183

Post by vkou » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

drewcon wrote: post #181

kodah wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life. If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

> I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area.

No, but it's responsible for not paying well, while mandating that everyone working for it must live in the most expensive region in the country.

> If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

Or walk across the street to a competitor. It is the Bay area, after all.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#184

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

drewcon wrote: post #181

kodah wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life. If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

It isn't. Nor should the company expect people to keep showing up if they are not being paid enough to live in the area where their offices are.

This is just suppliers (of labor) advising that their costs are going up, and thus so is the price of their economic input. It's just business.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#185

Post by nfriedly » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #156

JamesSwift wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. If more start to do it, it becomes an arms race. If a company is loading the compensation in other ways and coming in light on salary then their job posting becomes much less compelling for job seekers. So they have a choice: disclose the other compensation (in order to compete with the salary numbers of the other companies) or adjust their compensation to be heavier on salary so their numbers are in line…

I'm sad more companies don't up their 401k contributions, most people don't realize their employer can put in 40k a year (!!!) into an employee's 401k. Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash, and that isn't counting the earnings or the flexibility to reallocate 401k investments w/o having to pay taxes on earnings when changing where the money is invested.

Seriously! I've considered going back to contracting just so that I could fully fund a 401k account.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#186

Post by chrsig » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

drewcon wrote: post #181

kodah wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm leaving my company because it took so much "upwards pressure" to make this happen. Literally hundreds of people screaming in a townhall that the companies wages were so low that housing was eating up most of their paycheck while mandating a return to work from the top. This is in the Bay Area. I do think there's something to be said about a company that does not tend to the needs of its flock proactively.

I’m not sure why the company is responsible at an individual level for what’s going on in the Bay Area. They can’t tell you how to manage and interact with the expenses of your life. If you’re mad at anyone, walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing.

Because the company chooses to have a policy that mandates employees live within a viable commute radius of an office located in the city. I don't know why companies can't just take responsibility for their decisions.

Or the company can walk down to city hall and tell them to build more housing, because they're unable or unwilling to pay enough for people to live in a viable radius.

Or the company can relocate or establish a satellite office in a lower cost of living area.

Or the company can pay people commensurately with the cost of living in the area.

Or the company can deal with the inevitable attrition of their workforce as it happens, all the while denying that they have any agency and deflect blame onto individuals.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#187

Post by willcipriano » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

yieldcrv wrote: post #146

willcipriano wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Conspiracy to commit drug trafficking" would probably fit the bill. I think they could just call in the feds because from the state and federal perspective you are running a drug empire from that office.

Nah, state level would have no jurisdiction over the criminal action and feds arent caring right now, but focusing on the state level you can also just form a branch So you go online and fill out an LLC for another state, and just say you are licensing your brand name to that LLC in another state that is doing all the sales in that state

"Your honor, this man, doing business as "weed.com", collected the proceeds from four thousand individual sales of marijuana from his office at 123 Fake Street."

It's illegal to do that. What's the defense, it's legal to do that somewhere else?

That part of the justice system doesn't play around. There are people in jail for felony murder for selling the baggies to the guy who sold the drugs to the guy who overdosed.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#188

Post by russellendicott » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #87

ekianjo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anything preventing them from doing very large ranges like that?

Yes, it would discourage some candidates from applying if they see the average within that range is lower than the average they could get anywhere else. Dirty tricks are also a red flag for candidates. However, while that range is an exaggeration, the truth is that salary ranges for positions are actually much wider than candidates may expect. There's a misconception that open positions have a single "correct" salary…

Yeah, I expect it will turn into a game and companies will just explode the number of positions so "Software Engineer 1" will become

Software Engineer 1a (60k-70k) Software Engineer 1b (70k-80k) Etc...

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#189

Post by shmatt » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #140

TulliusCicero wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my group (with no positions in Colorado) preemptively bumped up everyone’s salaries to the midpoint of their pay bands Uhh, surely I'm not the only one seeing the obvious flaw here, right? Is the inevitable outcome here that pay bands will now cover a range where nobody is actually in the lower half, ever? That lower half of the range will just be there as a sort of psychological buffer?

So the pay bands go up. Everyone gets paid more, board salary go down a bit, and things hopefully become a bit more event. Sounds good? Things have been going the other direction far too long.

More like: Pay bands go up. Company cuts 15% of workforce "to achieve better numbers"

Every time you read that headline, the company could have just cut pay by 15% and gotten the same profitability. Higher pay will force medium-small companies to hire less people

Some SV companies make Billions in profits per quarter. Some don't. I've seen far too many employees try to justify why they should be making Meta compensation elsewhere. It doesn't and shouldn't work that way

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#190

Post by afrodc_ » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #175

com2kid wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad more companies don't up their 401k contributions, most people don't realize their employer can put in 40k a year (!!!) into an employee's 401k. Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash, and that isn't counting the earnings or the flexibility to reallocate 401k investments w/o having to pay taxes on earnings when changing where the money is invested.

> Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash And equivalent to 0 cash for paying the rent. I suspect that’s why it doesn’t seem to be a prominent concern in discussions about tech compensation.

I don't know about you, but with tech salaries, rent is the least for my concern. I think that's true for most people that don't live in ridiculously high cost of living areas.