Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#181

Post by nonameiguess » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

This seems to indicate it's been happening in the United States since before there was a United States: https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school...

It certainly feels like someone alive for the last 40 odd years that Columbine was the inflection point at which media really started to cover this. Either that is just because 1999 happens to be my own graduation year and I was too young or not paying attention any earlier, or maybe media coverage really did pick up compared to prior incidents, for whatever the heck unknown and largely random reason. We were still early into the 24 hour cable news cycle and widespread availability of the world-wide web, but as we can see, this was not the first even in 1999.

Assuming this is an accurate list, I don't see how we can possibly identify a root cause. This was happening before there was a 2nd amendment. Before there was heavy metal. Before video games. Presumably not before mental illness, but that is hardly a uniquely American problem. Sometimes national culture just picks up a particular character for whatever quirk of history that may not even be fully known or knowable, some forgotten confluence of events that continue to influence us today without anyone knowing it is happening or why.

We were among the first countries to offer widespread public education, weren't we? This was even true in colonial times. Maybe the gathering of fairly vulnerable people just makes an enticing target. And sure, there are other public gatherings of vulnerable people, but this one has been around for a very long time, enough to have presented opportunity centuries ago and get woven into barely conscious national memes about where you go if you want to shoot a bunch of people. In other countries, churches and trains seem to fill that role.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#182

Post by themacguffinman » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #176

themacguffinman wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I show you gory pictures from a car accident, would you understand the magnitude of the horror of cars to the extent that you would want to ban cars?

Yes I would be willing to have mandated integrated breathalyzers in the cars to disable them when the driver is intoxicated. Also cars are indeed banned for people who have not passed a driver's test. On the other hand I can walk into a sporting goods store like Dick's and get a gun and a thousand bullets no questions asked.

Do you think drunk driving is the only cause of car deaths? The facts don't bear this out, even if you remove the fraction of car deaths that involve alcohol impairment, the magnitude of car deaths remains truly enormous.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#183

Post by xvector » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #161

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

Can an 18 year old Serbian walk into a store and buy whatever guns they want? Can they buy a large amount of ammunition? You hand wave away ease of access, but it probably matters. It certainly matters at the margin.

The problem is so obviously guns. It boggles my mind that people can ask questions like "what is the solution" and "we need a nuanced discussion" when the US is the only country in the world where schoolchildren get gunned down every other week.

It is plainly obvious to any US citizen that has spent a significant amount of time outside the US, that the problem is guns.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#184

Post by paulcole » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

elforce002 wrote: post #135

As a foreigner I find this subject very complex since the right to bear arms in on the US constitution. To change or "rewrite" the constitution trying to deal with this subject could dissolve the US. Banning guns altogether (rather improbable) will only leave law abiding citizens at the mercy of criminals. More protection in schools could be a starting point to address these awful events. I'm still in favor of law ab…

> To change or "rewrite" the constitution trying to deal with this subject could dissolve the US.

As an American, this is a risk I’m willing to take.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#185

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

bediger4000 wrote: post #126

onesafari wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root cause may be bullying and ostracization combined with the media contagion effect. This is a repeating pattern. Bullying: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/25/uvalde-texa... The gunman in Tuesday’s elementary school massacre was a lonely 18-year-old who was bullied over a childhood speech impediment, suffered from a fraught home life and lashed out violently against peers and strangers recently an…

There's an amazing amount of "anti-bullying" education that goes on. I've got 4 kids and they all got many hours of anti-bullying. The issue there is that the solution is (at least in Denver Public Schools) that the burden is put squarely on the students. The message is that only students can prevent bullying. My experience is that teachers and administrators absolutely will not intervene. One of those 4 kids was get…

I was mercilessly bullied in 2nd and 3rd grade. My tormentors would tease me, ambush me and manipulate things to get me in trouble. I wasn’t perfect, but I wasn’t violent.

I dreaded going to lunch, then school in general. At one point I didn’t want to leave my house.

You know what stopped it? Mr. Alexander, a NYC schools science teacher who let me eat lunch in his room, saved me the Tuesday Science NY Times section and gave me science teacher manuals with experiments to do. He was a wounded Korean War vet, I believe a master sergeant who presented a very stern appearance. I’d do random errands and do science stuff and eventually helped with a few things in class. He took the time as an adult to help me understand that I was something, was a mentor and worthy of friends. Looking back, he changed the course of my life. One of the only regrets that I have in life is the I was never able to find him and thank him, as he’s almost certainly passed by now.

Every kid needs a Mr. Alexander. Someone who gives a shit and takes a moment to do something. It makes me angry that these shooters are often kids struggling with emotional problems, and instead finding someone to help, end up on online forums grooming them to be bigots or monsters.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#186

Post by softcactus » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

settrans wrote: post #24

Let's see what happens when you apply critical analysis and derive conclusions from data instead of rhetoric: Real Talk about School Shootings – where show how school shooting numbers are a terrible thing around which to craft policy. https://hwfo.substack.com/p/real-talk-about-school-shootings > The Gun Solution - where we fix the entire gun problem. https://hwfo.substack.com/p/the-gun-solution >

The Gun Solution proposed here is one of the more measured and level-headed assessments I have come across. The proposals it puts forth make a lot of sense, but I think it is missing a few things:

1. It completely ignores non-fatal gun injuries. I cant find a source atm but I believe around 40% of non-fatal gun injuries are accidental. To me, this is an indication that SOME level of training is required. Even if it's a $20 online course. This is an incredibly moderate take but many of the 2A enthusiasts I know would be opposed to this because "shall not be infringed" has been pushed as an axiom from 2A special interest groups. Which brings me to point #2

2. The article places the burden of action on the "liberals". No matter how sane the laws, no matter how good the messaging from the American "left" it will not penetrate the right's sphere of influence. Why? Because we all exist in our own media echo chambers. Any proposal will be completely misrepresented in bad faith, no matter how much of a compromise it is.

3. In many instances the implementation of gun control has not been lefty loonies taking guns away from red-blooded conservative Americans. The laws had bipartisan support. The Mulford Act in California was motivated by Black Panthers open carrying, and was passed under Reagan's Governorship. Bush Sr. banned importation of assault weapons in an attempt to be "tough on crime" and Clinton passed gun control legislation while also passing the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which turned us into a de facto police state.

The liberal media doesn't focus on data, it never has. Their analysis is flawed and their purpose is to drive traffic and manufacture consent. But even if CNN was repeating this article's proposals word for word, it would fall on deaf ears. The reason why we can't even have a discussion in the first place is because gun ownership has been fetishized and turned into an identity for people. It is now a facet of "identity" politics.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#187

Post by Barrin92 » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:33 AM UTC

bifrost wrote: post #80

condercet wrote: post #68

It is not fair to place the blame for this epidemic of violence squarely on those suffering from mental health issues. Mental health issues are distributed globally, but the gun violence problem is not. People who suffer from mental health issues are tremendously more likely to be victims of violence, rather than the perpetrators. These individuals already suffer from tremendous discrimination and hardships in their…

If we're going to talk numbers - most gun deaths involve gang/drug activities. The real numbers once you remove suicide and gangs all point to mental illness and DV/Violent individuals.

it's not like this changes the debate though even if it's accurate, if anything it broadens the argument. Cartel/gang grime is a huge issue and fueled by access to arms. Not only in the US, but also in Mexico and Latin America because a large supply of weapons goes illegally across the border.

In the UK, where the civilian population does not carry arms and even most cops don't, the police fires a few hundred shots per year(!) with a population of 60 million. In the entire post war era (The Troubles aside) less police has been killed than in the US in a year.

So if you care about the safety of law enforcement an arms race has bad consequences for everyone. And the militarization of police is another bad consequence.

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#188

Post by zozin » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:33 AM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #133

bifrost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its because buying a gun is a civil right. Smoking is not. That said, the 21yo requirement may be unconstitutional as well.

I've noticed your eight comments in this thread to date are fairly declarative but aren't well founded or sourced, simply assertions and often appear to be incorrect as responding comments have shown. Clearly, you and I both support the second amendment. However, we should recognize when our support of certain associate claims aren't well founded. Bearing arms and being part of a well-regulated militia are American c…

Oh wise HN poster waving away hundreds of years of jurisprudence and constitutional interpretation with one link!

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#189

Post by confidantlake » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

freediver wrote: post #2

I sincerely hope this does not descend into a flamewar. We can't have discussion about this in an intellectually stimulating way in congress, we can't have this discussion in the media, we obviously can't have this discussion on social media so HN is the last bastion of hope. It is a multi-faceted problem with a lot of complexity. The fact stands that USA has a school shooting problem [1] unlike any other country in…

To simplify. One side thinks "guns are the main problem". Another side thinks "guns are not the main problem". Did you think that the guns are the main problem people would just not show up to the thread?

Re: Mental illness, mass shootings, and the politics of American firearms (2015)

#190

Post by potbelly83 » Thu, May 26, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

jstream67 wrote: post #178

giraffe_lady wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of "intellectually stimulating" conversation about this and has been for decades. For the most part we value civility and compromise so highly that we'll accept the routine murder of children rather than pay the price of pissing a bunch of people off with gun reform. The conversations aren't the problem, the guns are. There's not really a path to compromise here, I don't think. Either we stop having gu…

we have constantly and consistently 'compromised' by adding more and more gun laws. Oddly none of them prevent this kind of issue as it is already illegal to kill someone

what are you smoking? we've consistently taken away gun laws.