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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#181

Post by enaaem »

cies wrote: post #151
enaaem wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why, as a westerner, I consider the Uyghur issue not to be ‘our’ problem. It’s terrible what’s happening there, but there are more than 2 billion muslims in the world who can do something about it.

Kinda sad that you cannot see humans as humans, but need to see every one by their religion-label (what ever that means).

What’s happening to the Uyghurs is definitely a humanitarian catastrophe. The Chinese are eradicating muslims from their territory and if the Muslim world are not willing to do anything about it, than there is little the West can do. You can’t fight other peoples battles they are not willing to fight themselves. We have seen this observation over and over again in human history.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#182

Post by DoughnutHole »

rayiner wrote: post #159
dr_faustus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

In my experience the constant outrage over Palestine is driven more by hatred of Israel than concern about Palestinians. Antisemitism is universal in the Muslim world,[1] not so with anti-Sino sentiment. Note that the wealthy Arab states surrounding Palestine aren’t leaping to admit refugees from Palestine. [1] I think my home country of Bangladesh is thousands of miles away from any significant population of Jews. Y…

Well the wealthy Arab states aren't the ones surrounding Palestine - the poor countries that do surround Palestine have taken in an enormous number of refugees - there are 2 million Palestinians in Jordan, nearly as many as there are in Palestine, the vast majority of which descend from those that fled Palestine between '47 and '67. Of the states actually bordering Israel and Palestine, Egypt is really the only one that hasn't pulled its weight.

The sabre rattling by the gulf states is 100% motivated by distracting their people with rage rather than by actual concern for Palestinians - but don't let that distract you from the fact that the states on Palestine's doorstep have genuinely dealt with their share of the human tragedy caused by the conflict. Close to a quarter of Jordan's citizens are now Palestinians, and the intake of refugees in Lebanon even triggered a 15 year civil war when the delicate Christian-Muslim political balance in the country was disrupted.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#183

Post by eternalban »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

The Xinjiang matter is bound up with: (a) the understanding that China is a rising superpower that the West wishes to contain; (b) it has nothing to do with the religion itself (given that China and Islam have a long history of coexistence); (c) that the strain of Islam of concern to Chinese authorities is the same strain used by West to conjure up the Taliban (which then gave us ISIS); and (d) knowledge of the fact that even as way back as the 4th 'Rightly Guided' khalif (Ali ibn abu Taleb) Muslim authorities themselves tended to view extremist and radical views of Islam with concern. There is a strange belief in the West that Muslims have been historically permissive to extremists religious positions whereas the actual facts are entirely contrary.

Two other hot button 'types' that you refer to are:

1 - Explicit derogatory attacks on Islam.

2 - Resisting a colonization effort that has had brutally adverse and tragic consequences for both Muslim and Christian populations of the contested colonial grounds.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#184

Post by refurb »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #177
refurb wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada.

> I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada. They literately prevent aid from coming into Gaza, and you think it's the same thing? Moreover, Palestinian fisherman aren't allowed to go beyond 1 mile out to shore as the Israeli State forbids them from going any further and are monitored and surveilled, under some obtuse j…

It is funny because the words are chosen carefully to gloss over the actual situation.

Hamas is at war with Israel. I don't find it unusual in the least that a country at war tightly controls its land crossings. Do you?

The more important question might be - why is the border crossing with Egypt also closed down or tightly controlled? Isn't Egypt an Arab ally? Why would they do that?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#185

Post by berdario »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

Part of the problem is that it's difficult to trust any of these documents. It seems that in this latest dump there are some that are blatantly forged.

Even if the others are genuine, this calls into question the veracity of the others

https://twitter.com/Cinqscories/status/1529035490032340993

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#186

Post by alisonatwork »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #79
dr_faustus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

> the situation of Muslims in China Here's your problem; trying to talk about "the situation of Muslims in China" is incoherent. Islam has been an accepted (though small) part of Chinese culture for many centuries, and it still is. The Uyghurs are highly atypical Muslims in China who don't speak Chinese and don't participate in Chinese culture, instead preferring their own rival culture. That (and rebelliousness) is…

What does "participate in Chinese culture" mean, and why shouldn't the culture of China's Xinjiang province count as "Chinese culture", assuming we accept the official description of China as a 多民族國家 multi-ethnic country?

I do get what you mean about language, insofar as most people of the Hui ethnic group do tend to speak the dominant Sinitic language of the region in which they live and not an entirely different language family like most Uyghur people. But that's more of a geographic inevitability than some kind of fundamental cultural difference - people from Inner Mongolia don't speak a Sinitic language either, does that make them equally as un-Chinese as people from Xinjiang? And if that matters so much, why does the Chinese government insist on holding on to these provinces whose culture is apparently unacceptably divergent from what they deem to be Chinese?

In any case, even Hui face some degree of discrimination in China, documented most recently in national anti-halal actions that expanded well beyond Xinjiang[0]. Like most minority ethnicities in the country, their culture is often joked about or dismissed in ways that "mainstream" Han culture is not. While this may not be blatant bigotry, the discrimination is something that would not be considered appropriate in countries whose people are more welcoming of ethnic diversity.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-religion-islam-idUS...

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#187

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #155
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

My impression is that most Muslims don’t real care about Muslims from other ethnic groups. Pakistan and Bangladesh, for example, are happy to suck up to China for the business opportunities. Similarly, the gulf states took few Syrian refugees during the recent crises: https://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Syrian-refugees-why-wo... . More generally, Arabs regard non-Arab Muslims as barely human—e.g. holding Bangladesh…

[deleted]

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#188

Post by grapeskin »

simonh wrote: post #172
grapeskin wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. I mean, America has the one drop rule too, and you’re highly suggested to pick your most minority group any time you apply to a job, school, or basically anything. So you have people who are 1/128th Cherokee trying to game diversity benefits while p…

The situation for indigenous people in the USA is awful, sure, but it's not even remotely equivalent. The tribes determine who is or isn't a tribal member. In China the state determines such things and are actively packing the minorities with Han.

The one drop rule also applies to black, Hispanic, and Asian people.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#189

Post by jhugasd »

berdario wrote: post #185
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

Part of the problem is that it's difficult to trust any of these documents. It seems that in this latest dump there are some that are blatantly forged. Even if the others are genuine, this calls into question the veracity of the others https://twitter.com/Cinqscories/status/1529035490032340993

Wow those are really bad fakes... You would think they at least hire someone to write simplified chinese

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#190

Post by glenstein »

berdario wrote: post #185
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

Part of the problem is that it's difficult to trust any of these documents. It seems that in this latest dump there are some that are blatantly forged. Even if the others are genuine, this calls into question the veracity of the others https://twitter.com/Cinqscories/status/1529035490032340993

A lot of what's going on in that tweet you cited is hard to decipher without stepping back and taking stock of the context.

For instance, I don't know what to make of the significance of a cursor being visible in a document that is dumped (it might be a big deal, or it might not be at all) and I don't know how motivated the party is here to use that to prove a particular argument, or what it should or shouldn't prove.

In this case, you apparently have to be already bought in with the idea that BBC and Le Monde have a history of using fabricated info from the U.N., and that a reporter is untrustworthy for reasons explained at length in an entirely different twitter thread that you'd have to read to understand. After being that bought in, the fact that BBC, Le Monde, and/or this reporter are involved is treated as evidence in and of itself that the new info is unreliable. You have to agree with all that to even start in the middle and begin going through this analysis.

To state it plainly, whenever I see something like this that starts so deep in the middle of unexplained context, I treat it like an "indicator" (in the sense of an economic indicator) against the argument, because it feels like I'm being asked to skip critical steps.

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