PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs • Hacker News Board

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#181

Post by Ekaros » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #57

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

> Where is all this tuition even going to? I have a family member who works in the “alumni relations” department of a small, regional public university. Probably ranked like #300 or something. There are like 5 people in the department. They make a magazine, email newsletter and schedule alumni events. It was really surreal when they explained their job and that the department exists. There’s an admin costs problem in…

5 people for Alumni relationships if they also deal with some other public relations really doesn't sound too horrible.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#182

Post by lupire » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

david38 wrote: post #33

FunnyBadger wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely do in engineering - USC and UCLA had most of its PhD students working full time in industry and only part time in their PhD program and grad school generally. I know because I was one of them.

I have never heard of this for computer science. I went to UIUC so I am only talking about the Midwest. How would you have time to finish? A full time PhD works a LOT. I can’t imagine doubling the time to a PhD.

It helps if your job is related to your PhD.

(And if it's not, why are you doing both at the same time?)

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#183

Post by moron4hire » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

FunnyBadger wrote: post #15

tombert wrote: post #7

It's a bit of a shame that the US doesn't really allow part time PhDs (at least not in any of the schools that I asked). If they did, conceivably a lot of these students could get a relatively well-paying job in engineering or a lab or something, and as such the schools could get away with paying less. Part of the reason that I didn't bother trying to pursue the CUNY PhD in mathematics was specifically because the st…

They definitely do in engineering - USC and UCLA had most of its PhD students working full time in industry and only part time in their PhD program and grad school generally. I know because I was one of them.

Yeah, a friend of mine has a PhD in Economics, that he got while working full-time at FDIC. I know a number of people working full-time at government research labs in various math and science fields that are PhD candidates. The part-time PhD seems like it's extremely common as long as there is real, employment-market demand for that PhD, too.

On the other hand, all the history PhDs I know can't even get work at their own university.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#184

Post by lupire » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #24

FunnyBadger wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely do in engineering - USC and UCLA had most of its PhD students working full time in industry and only part time in their PhD program and grad school generally. I know because I was one of them.

Fair enough; when I reached out to schools within commuting distance of me (the general NYC area), none of them offered any kind of part time plan for Mathematics or Computer Science (the only fields I'm really interested in). Sadly, there are not a ton of universities that offer an online PhD in CS or Math, meaning that I was limited to what I could easily get to via train, at least in regards to schools in the Unit…

England is easy for getting a PhD in math or CS -- just do your own research independently , and then submit your thesis for PhD certification..

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#185

Post by hedora » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #14

Overtonwindow wrote: post #5

I think the PhD is overrated, and along with that I think a lot of university education is overrated; note this is someone with two BA's and a Masters. Unless you're teaching, or doing some hard core research, I don't see that the PhD is necessary or even a good investment. That time could have been spent gaining experience, which IMHO, is extremely valuable.

Part of the annoyance there is that most research gigs are gatekept behind doctorates. I cannot tell you how many times I've been declined from Microsoft Research, despite having a bachelors degree and more than a decade of industry experience, specifically because I'm "not qualified enough" for a research engineer experience. > That time could have been spent gaining experience, which IMHO, is extremely valuable. I…

MSR is pretty competitive. How many papers do you publish in a typical year?

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#186

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #159

exhilaration wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society has decided that it doesn't want to support American universities through tax dollars [1] so you can't really blame universities for trying to find any and all other sources of funding. [1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-hig...

>"Society has decided that it doesn't want to support American universities through tax dollars." This is hyperbole, the government is spending billions on American Universities in a myriad of different ways. And, many ways of support are not direct. One could argue that the guaranteed student loan programs are a roundabout way of supporting universities through tax dollars as well.

> One could argue that the guaranteed student loan programs are a roundabout way of supporting universities through tax dollars as well.

No, guaranteed student loans are a way to transfer wealth from future taxpayers and borrowers to beneficiaries of tuition such as university staff and whoever is receiving money from the university such as construction companies and whatnot.

The guaranteed loans with no underwriting obfuscate costs and thus result in a mid allocation of society’s resources. Such as leagues of people spending their valuable years learning “communications” or “business” degrees and then sitting in a call center or other role that does not pay enough to make the degree they paid for in time and money to have any decent or even positive ROI.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#187

Post by adventured » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #16

tombert wrote: post #7

It's a bit of a shame that the US doesn't really allow part time PhDs (at least not in any of the schools that I asked). If they did, conceivably a lot of these students could get a relatively well-paying job in engineering or a lab or something, and as such the schools could get away with paying less. Part of the reason that I didn't bother trying to pursue the CUNY PhD in mathematics was specifically because the st…

Where is all this tuition even going to? Schools in the US charge an absurd amount of tuition compared to schools in Europe/Asia and yet these colleges are also systematically underpaying PhD students, Teaching Assistants, etc. College Professors don't exactly make the big bucks either. Yet, universities in the US have made put many Americans in lifelong debt. These colleges are all "nonprofit" (and get significant t…

Admin and prestige buildings, across decades, along with the upkeep related to those things now and going forward (pensions/retirements, building maintenance & upkeep).

Also, US incomes are among the highest in the world, everything should seem expensive here compared to the typical European nation. Comparing to eg Japan or Britain doesn't work, our incomes are far higher. If you want to look at costs for the median or above, you have to reference Sweden, Finland, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Australia for comps. Simultaneously our costs are still too high even after you adjust for that (in things like healthcare and education).

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#188

Post by lupire » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:11 PM UTC

boldlybold wrote: post #103

This led to me consulting during my PhD to supplement the stipend up to a reasonable salary. A lot of PhD students, especially if your work touches on computational sciences, are a lot more valuable than the university would like you to believe. After moving to industry, I'm starting to realize how valuable the consulting experience was. The project management and scoping skills, and wearing multiple hats, were big b…

> are a lot more valuable than the university would like you to believe.

Category error. Correction: You have the ability to do outside work that pays more than anything the University needs.

It's not the university's fault if you want to do a low value research job at the university.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#189

Post by sbarbarian » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

I deferred joining a Bio lab out of undergrad after being pulled aside during my acceptance visit and given an 'academia life 101' from a postdoc. There were too many bio PhDs, too few academic positions, and too few opportunities in the business sector to have a lucrative and fulfilling career. Unless I was very lucky - according to this postdoc - I was making a poor decision. He advised me to go to industry a few years then reconsider.

I never looked back, and I often reflect on his intervention.

It saddens me greatly that many of my friends still in Bio have lived this prediction, while meanwhile academica's administrative staff counts (and salaries) balloon. For all the promise to human economy, bio is still astoundingly complex, difficult to monetize, and hard to justify increased budgets for. On the flip side, as essential to our planet and culture as understanding esoteric biological knowledge is (e.g. deep-sea fish behavior), nobody is willing to fund it at the scale needed before much of it disappears forever thanks to climate change.

Not sure how the wage issue can be solved, but more sources of funding towards hard research for research's sake (i.e. fact-finding in-vivo science) seems like it could help. So too, could forcing schools to obviously pay more by reducing the amount of admitted students. Less labor supply could give some leverage to often powerless grad students.

Re: PhD students face cash crisis with wages that don’t cover living costs

#190

Post by abhgh » Mon, May 23, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #144

abhgh wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a part-time PhD (not in the US, so I am only responding to the latter part of your comment). It's hard, exhausting and can occasionally be frustrating. I gave up most of my weekends during the time. My sleep hours were less than what they should have been - and I did this for years. If you're wondering, it did lead to some health problems (esp. my back), thankfully not major, most of which I've recovered from.…

Out of curiosity, since you've gone through this before, do you have any advice on the best way to manage your time doing a part-time PhD. I've started my part-time a month ago, and it's been pretty exhausting already, and I suspect it will get harder. How did you budget time to talk to family, or to do something for yourself to avoid burnout?

It was hard for me to set aside specific hours of the day for PhD during the week - because I occasionally had early morning and late evening meetings for my day job. And on some days the work itself would spill over. So the simple policy I followed as: if I am not involved in work from my job, work on the PhD. Far from simple to follow though.

I'd often work out of cafes and libraries (I used to cycle between a small set of my favorites), because the change of atmosphere, and often the ambient activity, helps. Not to mention, if you're tired and trying to work from home, it's easier to get distracted (I could justify dozing off), than when you're at a cafe with your laptop in front of you and there's little else to do. I found that university cafes can be particularly helpful because you see a lot of people working around you.

Family and friends: I didn't really plan talk time with my parents or friends but was mindful we talk without too much of a gap in between (at least twice a week with parents). I used to reserve the times when I really needed to unwind for these chats. Note: I was single for most of my PhD, and got married when things were winding down.

On weekends, I would typically allow myself Sat morning off for a change of pace. On most weekends, I would drive off out of my normal ambit of travel, and work from a cafe/library away from home.

Of course, none of above advice worked during the pandemic- working on the PhD became relatively harder then.

Essentially, since I couldn't have changed the amount of work I needed to do, I substituted that lack of variation by constantly changing the atmosphere I worked in. That helped a lot.