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Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

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Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#181

Post by simion314 »

pjmlp wrote: post #180
simion314 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your problem is with bad developers not following the standards then why is your solution to screw the users. Find a solution for the problem bad developers and greedy companies. Such a solution for preventing IE6 like cases is to remind Apple that users should be able to install alternative browsers. I test my stuff in Firefox and Chrome, can't check Safari or Safari Beta so if you really want more support for Sa…

The users have the option not to buy Apple devices.

>The users have the option not to buy Apple devices.

And Apple has the option not to ship in EU when there will be a browser selection law as for Microsoft Windows.

If you are honest you would know that most users only have 2 mobile OS options, they don't have granular options like "I want an iOs with privacy of iOS, freedom of Linux and design of GNOME , users have a choice form 2 big pile of shit and they need to decide the one that stinks less.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#182

Post by pjmlp »

simion314 wrote: post #181
pjmlp wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The users have the option not to buy Apple devices.

>The users have the option not to buy Apple devices. And Apple has the option not to ship in EU when there will be a browser selection law as for Microsoft Windows. If you are honest you would know that most users only have 2 mobile OS options, they don't have granular options like "I want an iOs with privacy of iOS, freedom of Linux and design of GNOME , users have a choice form 2 big pile of shit and they need to d…

27% in Europe doesn't make a monopoly like Windows with 80% desktop market.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe

Random wishes on HN and actual laws aren't the same.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#183

Post by vnkr »

alaricus wrote: post #145
prdonahue wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate the speculation, but using Firefox does not increase your likelihood of being flagged as a bot nor does it increase your threat score.

Care to back that up with data? The link above is demonstrating the opposite.

No post body was provided.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#184

Post by simion314 »

pjmlp wrote: post #182
simion314 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The users have the option not to buy Apple devices. And Apple has the option not to ship in EU when there will be a browser selection law as for Microsoft Windows. If you are honest you would know that most users only have 2 mobile OS options, they don't have granular options like "I want an iOs with privacy of iOS, freedom of Linux and design of GNOME , users have a choice form 2 big pile of shit and they need to d…

27% in Europe doesn't make a monopoly like Windows with 80% desktop market. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe Random wishes on HN and actual laws aren't the same.

We have the freedom to ask our representatives for new laws, bad behavior needs to be stopped regardless of market share.

And Apple will always have the option to follow the law or not sell stuff in EU, we demanded the industry to use same charger for devices (before even same fucking company could have different chargers) and we got it, we can do the same for browser options, payment options if our democracy wants it, but Apple could protect US citizens and not allow them to install alternative browsers and stores, then in 10 years we can compare numbers and see who was right - though I am expecting the answer "US is special, is big and the density and the diversity, something that works in EU will not work in US)

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#185

Post by account42 »

samhw wrote: post #127
robonerd wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean Hanlon's razor, but that adage is a farce. Every scoundrel in the world knows the trick of pretending it was all a mistake. Skepticism is warranted.

I can't see why Occam's razor wouldn't apply: don't postulate more entities than are necessary to explain the facts. Specifically, there is no reason to postulate some kind of anti-Firefox elements within Cloudflare when it's simply explainable as a mistake . (There's a reason Hanlon's razor was given that name, I'm pretty sure, and that's because it's not too dissimilar from – essentially it's a much-more-situation-…

It doesn't matter which razor you want to apply. These guidelines work well for natural/random phenomena but if you are talking about a potentially malicious group of sentient actors you have to assume that they will abuse your willingness to brush off ambigious acts as benign. For an organization that controls as large as a percentage of web traffic as Cloudflare I don't think we should be giving them the benefit of the doubt. Even if this is a customer rule, Cloudflare are still the ones making it easy and cheap to implement such rules.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#186

Post by account42 »

robonerd wrote: post #16

We're regressing to a state reminiscent of the dark IE years. Except back then when you suggested alternative browsers, people were generally receptive once they saw the practical utility of features like tabs. Now when you suggest alternative browsers, people complain about tens of milliseconds more latency and insist on using Chrome for the speed. It's hard to blame them though, since the practical advantages of Fi…

> Mozilla focuses on more abstract advantages, like privacy

Mozilla marketing focuses on that. Mozilla development still uses opt-out telemetry, experiments on users without consent and they still have Google Analytics on their websites.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#187

Post by ocdtrekkie »

simion314 wrote: post #89
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there are literally activists promoted to ending that final stand protecting the open web.

The reality is people want freedom to use Firefox or Chrome in iOs, they don't want a monopoly , imagine if Microsoft would not have allowed you to install a third pary browser unless it uses their engine and it accepts their rules, then we would all still use IE6 but with different themes and superficial features. Safari needs to implement the standards and offer decent performance, adding on top of that very good i…

The thing is, the lowest common denominator folks have to support, Safari, is what forces the entire web to follow web standards. As soon as developers can demand users switch to Chromium on iOS, you'll see a massive uptick in websites which only work in Chrome.

Effectively, in this case allowing competition will permanently destroy the open web.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#188

Post by simion314 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #187
simion314 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is people want freedom to use Firefox or Chrome in iOs, they don't want a monopoly , imagine if Microsoft would not have allowed you to install a third pary browser unless it uses their engine and it accepts their rules, then we would all still use IE6 but with different themes and superficial features. Safari needs to implement the standards and offer decent performance, adding on top of that very good i…

The thing is, the lowest common denominator folks have to support, Safari, is what forces the entire web to follow web standards. As soon as developers can demand users switch to Chromium on iOS, you'll see a massive uptick in websites which only work in Chrome. Effectively, in this case allowing competition will permanently destroy the open web.

The issue with Safari browsers is not that libraries we use support Chrome only features but that Safari can have bugged implementations or small differences and we can't test Safari. For example a WebGl based library I was using (for advanced stuff not rendering static text) stopped working on iOS because Apple changed the WebGl stuff, so we put for this users a 2d ugly but functional fallback. Because this was a third party library and not something I had experience with I could not entertain the idea of attempting to debug the issue or create a fix .

Then later Apple decided to change iPad browser to pretend is a desktop, this broke my checks and instead of the 2D version the iPad users got the broken 3D version. But finally the broken WebGl was released on Apple desktops/laptops so now everyone using Safari gets the 2D version.

What we need is a way to test Safari the stable and the Beta, I can find bugs, the guys that made the WebGl library find the bugs before the browser is released etc.

What non standard API only Chrome implements and evil web developers want to use?

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#189

Post by ocdtrekkie »

simion314 wrote: post #188
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the lowest common denominator folks have to support, Safari, is what forces the entire web to follow web standards. As soon as developers can demand users switch to Chromium on iOS, you'll see a massive uptick in websites which only work in Chrome. Effectively, in this case allowing competition will permanently destroy the open web.

The issue with Safari browsers is not that libraries we use support Chrome only features but that Safari can have bugged implementations or small differences and we can't test Safari. For example a WebGl based library I was using (for advanced stuff not rendering static text) stopped working on iOS because Apple changed the WebGl stuff, so we put for this users a 2d ugly but functional fallback. Because this was a th…

> What non standard API only Chrome implements and evil web developers want to use?

Two things:

1. Feel free to look at the wide litany of garbage security and privacy holes Google has added to Chrome that are only supported by Chrome forks, which Mozilla and Safari have both publicly declared they will not support.

https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

Mozilla has defined 24 items as "harmful", and that's a good start at bad ideas Google has shoehorned into calling "the web". Who wrote... basically every single harmful spec? Oh, the adtech company that is allowed to also make a web browser.

2. You're also just not understanding the problem. It doesn't actually matter what web developers want to use and don't want to use. Web developers are, and I'm sorry to insult a bunch of HN users here, really lazy. If they can demand people switch to Chrome, they will. In fact, they often do even when the website works fine everywhere else.

Next time you hit a Chrome-only user-agent check in Firefox, tell your browser to lie about the user agent and you'll probably discover the site works fine. I constantly see companies tell us their products "aren't supported" unless you use Chrome, even if they work fine in Firefox, and the issues we call about aren't caused by the browser, and can be duplicated in Chrome.

Right now, the only reason far more web developers aren't pasting Chromium checks into every single page, is they have to support Safari anyways, because they can't lose the iOS market. But as soon as it's possible for web devs to force users to install Chrome to continue on iOS, they will. And at that point, Google really doesn't need to pretend it cares about web standards anymore anyways, because alternative engines will already be dead.

Re: Firefox appears to be flagged as suspicious by Cloudflare

#190

Post by [deleted] »

prdonahue wrote: post #100

(I’m responsible for Cloudflare’s L7 security products) While we can’t comment on the specifics of any customer configuration, we do not block or challenge Firefox by default—either with our Bot Management products or with any other L7 security controls. You can confirm this by signing up a free zone and making a request from Firefox.

[deleted]
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