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A clean start for the web (2020)

macwright.com

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Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#181
> It’s easier to stumble into building your resume in React with GraphQL than it is to type some HTML in Notepad.

It is untrue. You can write a plain HTML (even without CSS) and it will work OK.

> Webpage size growth is outpacing it all.

It is true, unfortunately. They waste too much space by adding too much extra pictures, CSS, JavaScripts, videos, advertising, etc. You should not need all of that stuff.

> Not only is it nearly impossible to build a new browser from scratch, once you have one the ongoing cost of keeping up with standards requires a full team of experts.

Yes, this is the real problem. However, some of the standards simply should not be implemented, and some should be implemented differently than what the standards say, to give advanced end users better controls and improve efficiency and many other things.

> We hope that all this innovation is for the user, but often it isn’t.

That is true, it isn't. To make it for the user, design the software for advanced users who are assumed to know what they are doing and that the end user customizes everything. Make documents without CSS; the end user can specify what colours/fonts they want. Make raw data files available; the end user might have programs to view and query them (possibly using SQLite).

> There is the “document web”, like blogs, news, Wikipedia, Twitter, Facebook.

I do not use Facebook, but I can comment about the others. There is NNTP, too. Wikipedia (and MediaWiki in general; not only Wikipedia) uses a lot of JavaScripts and CSS too; you can add your own, but removing the existing ones and replacing by your own will be difficult. If you want to replace the audio/video player with your own, can you do it? What is needing is making actual proper HTML, or EncapsulatedHyperEncyclopedia format, perhaps.

> Basically CSS, which we now think of as a way for designers to add brand identity and tweak pixel-perfect details, was instead mostly a way of making plain documents readable and letting the readers of those documents customize how they looked.

I still often disable CSS, but sometimes result in big icons and other things still wasting space. Maybe if disabling CSS would support ARIA and other things might to actually make an improvement.

One idea that I have is that if your document only uses classless CSS and that a web browser that supports the semantic HTML commands (and not the presentational commands) should display it suitably, specify a feature="usercss" attribute in the and/or element that specifies the stylesheets, so that a web browser can understand to use it. This way, it will be up to the end user to set their own styles as they want to do and can effectively use it in favour of the author's one without breaking it.

> Though it’s going to be a rough ride in the current web which has basically thrown away semantic HTML as an idea.

Semantic HTML can be a good idea, and still is sometimes used, even if it is often ignored (and sometimes not implemented in the client side, too) in favour of bad stuff instead.

> Rule #3 is make it better for everyone. There should be a perk for everyone in the ecosystem: people making pages, people reading them, and people making the technology for them to be readable.

Yes, it is true. For people reading pages better, do not have any styles specified in the document. Let the end user to specify their own colours/fonts/etc, and different implementations can render them as appropriate for the interface in use.

> I think this combination would bring speed back, in a huge way. You could get a page on the screen in a fraction of the time of the web. The memory consumption could be tiny. It would be incredibly accessible, by default. You could make great-looking default stylesheets and share alternative user stylesheets. With dramatically limited scope, you could port it to all kinds of devices.

Yes, these are the greater benefits.

> What could aggregation look like? If web pages were more like documents than applications, we wouldn’t need RSS - websites would have an index that points to documents and a ‘reader’ could aggregate actual webpages by default.

Yes, that will work, although you may want metadata fields to be available. (An implementation might then allow end users to specify SQL to query them, or other things are possible.)

> We could link between the webs by using something like dat’s well-known file, or using the Accept header to create a browser that can accept HTML but prefers lightweight pages.

The documentation for dat's well-known file does not work (it just tries to redirect).

Using the Accept header is possible, but has its own issues. You might need to list one hundred different file formats to indicate all of them, you might want to download an arbitrary file regardless of Accept headers, etc.

> Application web 2.0

There are problems with the containers, web applications, etc, which is that they do not have the powers of UNIX, TRON, etc.

About separation of application web vs document web, I think that they should not be joined too closely together nor separately too far apart.

I have may own design which is VM3 (the name might or might not change in future), and we can then see what we will come up with. (It could be used with static document views only, executable codes with command-line or GUI or other interfaces, etc. The design is meant to improve portability and security, as well as user controls and capabilities.)

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having a DOM, having structure, having a hypermedium is a source of immense potential & power. For documents, yes. For apps those are obstacles. Apps just need something to draw on.

Your statement doesnt resemble any gui toolkits Im familiar with. Not Flutter, not Swift, not Gnome, nothing. The DOM closely resembles other ui construction systems & has similar ideas lile event handling. And then the pretense that developers are the only thing that matter. The web is vastly better than apps because of the dom, because our systems are in a malleable hypermedia that ysers can modify eith userscripts…

The very big difference between the web and a proper GUI toolkit is that in GUI toolkits, inline elements aren't a thing, period. Text nodes also aren't a thing and don't mess up your layout when you least expect it (argh). You need to explicitly create a "text view" or label of some sort to display text. GUI toolkits also usually offer layout algorithms that make sense for GUIs. Oh and did I mention that they have sane defaults like not insisting on using the intrinsic sizes of things unless you explicitly tell them to?

Another property GUI toolkits have that the web lacks is that the GUI toolkit is usually made of the exact same kind of code you're writing your app in. There's a much tighter integration between the app and the toolkit. The app can extend it much more sensibly by, for example, implementing custom layout algorithms. With the web, there's this issue of the browser implementing all the layout and drawing and doing all the work and you can only provide input parameters to these hard-wired algorithms — you can't build your own.

Yes, I'm aware of those layout and paint worklets being worked on. Yes, they solve some of these problems and thankfully move the web platform closer to feature-completeness. It's still a mess though.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is all a question, of how big you want to scale it.

Stack Overflow runs SSR with a half a dozen servers. How much more scale do you need?

A bit more, if the servers also have to handle media.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#184
post #123
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One advantage of pushing the computing on the user-side is that it reduces the load on the server: less requests, less processing and smaller request sizes. Thus it reduces the bill for the developers/companies :)

Since all the clients have to do the work, doesn't that result in a net increase in electricity consumption? Since most electricity comes from fossil fuels doesn't that in net hurt our battle against climate change?

Servers are probably a bit more energy efficient than most consumer devices, but in general it does not matter if you calculate it at A or at B. Somewhere it needs to be processed.

You were maybe thinking of processing once and then push it to thousands of clients? Those scenarios exists, but are the exception and not the topic here.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#185
post #35
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be so siloed? What if I want documents with a slight bit of inactivity? Why must I go through two different protocols? What if I want to read a paper next to the Juyter notebook that made it? I think it should be the clients job to take whatever slice of a richer universe it wants. This also stops duplication of effort, why maintain separate protocols and clients etc. It’s just a search issue, the…

> What if I want documents with a slight bit of inactivity? Then you use Adobe Flash. See, we used to have a decent technology for when you want "a document with a slight bit of interactivity". It worked very well for this exact purpose. More than 10 years later, browsers' native capabilities, that are supposed to be a replacement for what Flash offered, have still not quite caught up. Moreover, Flash defined a clear…

> I miss Flash. I hope it makes a comeback eventually.

Flash was great for developers, but terrible for users. The only good user experience was "flash games/animations" and even then they weren't responsive and a little clunky.

The Flash I remember was bloated "Flash" websites that had No HTML, No url paths, No SEO metadata, Terrible for accessibility.... but it was easy to develop for I guess...

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#186

What we need is for HTML to get going as a hypermedia again, to make the hypermedia architecture viable for a larger set of web applications. It's been stalled at anchors and forms (with only GET and POST!) for decades now. It's astounding how much we got built with just that. I'm trying to show where it could go with htmx: https://htmx.org Hypermedia (in particular the uniform interface) is what made the web special…

This. This gets us 98% of the way. The people that have to worry about the 2% are not you, because your web app almost certainly doesn’t need offline-first of FPS-like user interaction, so in 98% of cases, hypermedia + tech like htmx gets you 100% of the way. For pete’s sake, just let your server serve html. Replace only the parts of the page that need to update… with html. From your server. The poor thing is just si…

> For pete’s sake, just let your server serve html

You do realize this means all the user data has to be sent to the cloud? Which is what we want to escape? Hypermedia was created for bots for discoverability, I don't know why anyone would think this is an user-centric concept.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#187
post #106
post #18

In theory I love the idea of a clean start for the web. I agree with the idea of a separation between "document web" and "application web". The problem, though, is that if we were to do away with the web today and invent a replacement I am entirely convinced it would be utterly corrupted by corporate interests. The "document web" would be something very much like Google AMP. Those documents will need to be indexed so…

I feel the same way and share the same concerns. However people have already experienced the open, free web. I don’t think you can take that away anymore.

It just takes a generation. We’re already on our way there.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement doesnt resemble any gui toolkits Im familiar with. Not Flutter, not Swift, not Gnome, nothing. The DOM closely resembles other ui construction systems & has similar ideas lile event handling. And then the pretense that developers are the only thing that matter. The web is vastly better than apps because of the dom, because our systems are in a malleable hypermedia that ysers can modify eith userscripts…

The very big difference between the web and a proper GUI toolkit is that in GUI toolkits, inline elements aren't a thing, period. Text nodes also aren't a thing and don't mess up your layout when you least expect it (argh). You need to explicitly create a "text view" or label of some sort to display text. GUI toolkits also usually offer layout algorithms that make sense for GUIs. Oh and did I mention that they have s…

There's a lot here I think doesnt have much merit i fact, is bias & predisposition, a false belief that only simpler/dumber/less is permissable. I disagree & see no basis in fact, no evidence for any of these claims to importance & difference, but I also think nearly no one can claim authority, has any real idea. I dont believe this expansive platform is to the detriment, but Im also capable of allowing for differing views, wrong though I think they be. Neither side has much to say for itself. The first claim being that inline rendering capabilities are actively harmful, that the web's capability is a point for the opposing side starts me off with extreme doubt, but in spite of my extreme doubt it's in an unresolved state. We need more & wider possobilities to assess; I dont see that recognition that we need to know more to decide in the web-detractors allowed-fors.

Where I really want to pull the emergency break & call for reassesment is when I hear promotion of turning usercs experineces into mere pixel pushing videos. I still cant begin to express enough what a colossal & masive civilizational downgrade it would be to reduce the web to moving pcitures, animated pixels, which again seems like ongoing chorus of this post. Layout can preserve textual information, but the idea that we just need to let devs paint whatever and fuck hypermedia, fuck structured information, fuck text: it's ballistic out of this world demonic. Truly fallen a proposition. There's so many people eho recognize for example Flutter & it's infernal CanvasKit as the enemy, as a thing no one else can read or understand but which the app can unmediatedly foist upon us. Instead of a shared medium where both sides have respect & powers, there's this ongoing deeply authoriarian undercurrent ehich has infected the world, thay says only the app's concermd matter. That hypermediums are irrelevant- 0% of importance is information & shared mediums, 100% of importance is the top down imposed experience. Users get no say, browsers get no say. To me, to many, this is as dark & bleak & sad a world as could be imagined, forsaking every gain & advance at interconnecting the world for a ludicrously totalitarian view of what software is for.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#189
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since all the clients have to do the work, doesn't that result in a net increase in electricity consumption? Since most electricity comes from fossil fuels doesn't that in net hurt our battle against climate change?

Servers are probably a bit more energy efficient than most consumer devices, but in general it does not matter if you calculate it at A or at B. Somewhere it needs to be processed. You were maybe thinking of processing once and then push it to thousands of clients? Those scenarios exists, but are the exception and not the topic here.

> Those scenarios exists, but are the exception

More like, they are the rule.

Re: A clean start for the web (2020)

#190

I personally would love a "document web" and an "application web." I've thought of this before independently and talked about it to some people, I think the author is right, the idea of one client application for everything internet related is a core source for the problems we face with the web. I like Gemini, a lot, and I think it could serve as a "document web" very well, except it's missing certain document featur…

> I like Gemini, a lot, and I think it could serve as a "document web"

A document web is dead in the water if it does not at least support the things that are common with physical documents. That means inline images and at least some control over layout.

Gemini throws out way more than what would be justified with the document/application distinction and as a result doesn't have a chance of meaningful adoption. Maybe that's OK for the people behind Gemini, but that still leaves the role of the "document web" for the rest of us.

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