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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#181
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Watts

Quite often I find that Man suffers only because a second Man finds joy in the suffering of the first. Detachment will serve you well in alleviating the suffering that would otherwise arise from the uncaring, undirected whims of the universe, but will leave you unprepared at dealing with willful and directed malice.

In the spirit of curiosity and playfulness I would like to respond with a bold claim:

The distinction between self and other is simply a concept. Certainly useful in many situations, but ultimately just one perspective - one tool at the mind’s disposal.

One could reasonably argue this is the central teaching of Buddhism. Alan Watts helped articulate these ideas to western audiences in many of his lectures:

“You see, the point is that an enormous number of things are going on inside us of which we are not conscious. We make a very, very arbitrary distinction between what we do voluntarily and what we do involuntarily, and we define all those things which we do involuntarily as things that happen to us rather than things that we do. In other words, we don’t assume any responsibility for the fact that our heart beats, or that our bones have such and such a shape.

If you become aware of the fact that you are all of your own body, and that the beating of your heart is not just something that happens to you, but something you’re doing, then you become aware, also—in the same moment and at the same time—that you’re not only beating your heart, but that you are shining the sun.”

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forefront? HA! My experience is diametrically opposite: prolong Buddhism practice often leads to ego-centric behaviors that are swept under the rug and not talked about. I was warned about it when I started getting "serious" about my practice, but I didn't believe it until I confronted it, face-to-face, on a daily basis. To this day I am the renegate and persona non grata at my Temple, ex except for the Abbot and my…

Buddhist vipassana meditation is based on deconstructing the ego altogether as well as all desires, and recognizing the illusion behind them. So if people are being egocentric, they probably have not progressed very far in their spiritual path.

You'd be surprised. Even very realized people like Chogyam can be boisterous, womanizing, drunks. There are plenty of examples of highly awakened people doing conventionally bad and egocentric things. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff holds a lot of people back, if not dissuade them completely, from trying a little bit of meditation to improve their lives. There's a lot of archetypes of this in /r/streamentry. The term is crazy wisdom or divine madness, coined by Chogyam himself.

Ironically, and bit hilariously, conceit/pride is one of the fetters discarded at enlightenment, yet the Buddha Gautama has been quoted, "I am the greatest!"

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a balance to be struck with anything. On the one hand, teaching meditation outside of the context of religion might increase the likelihood of the purpose of the practice being misunderstood. On the other hand, any religious practice runs the risk of breeding a sense of self righteousness in the practitioner. With meditation and mindfulness, I've seen both. Also, I gotta say that language like "moral deficien…

Forgive me, English is not my first language so at times I struggle finding the right word for it. The pali word is "sila", the closest translation is morals. To be deficient in sila is to be deficient in morals, was my thought process. One example is do no harm, or avoid lying. If all your daily life is filled with causing harm, and deceit, then it will be filled with chaos and end up making it harder for you to mak…

tbf it's not your English that's lacking. It's just that translation from Buddhist term (pali) to English (or other language) is hard or they have no direct translation. Dukkha is one of them.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#184

Every human behavior has selfishness at its root. It’s the essential thing that keeps us alive. After all, the act of staying alive, is a selfish act in itself. But even giving your life for someone else is also a selfish act. Some part of you wants to be seen as the hero. And wants to be remembered as the selfless person who did all. Even towards babies. And that’s because that behavior is hard-wired in our DNA beca…

Reality is complicated and nuanced and attempts to boil reality down to single concepts or dimensions are always full of ifs and buts and end up not really holding up when you look closer.

Everything is selfishness is an especially lame theory of everything. Start asking who the self is, and what the benefit is and you're going to quickly see that you can't define either without completely washing any value out of your theory of everything. In the end it doesn't serve much purpose beyond justifying selfish behaviour.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#185

Every human behavior has selfishness at its root. It’s the essential thing that keeps us alive. After all, the act of staying alive, is a selfish act in itself. But even giving your life for someone else is also a selfish act. Some part of you wants to be seen as the hero. And wants to be remembered as the selfless person who did all. Even towards babies. And that’s because that behavior is hard-wired in our DNA beca…

Even helping a baby unrelated to you is selfish to some degree, at least in terms of ensuring the propagation of your species.

I think the more useful way to evaluate actions is to try to estimate the net good they do or don’t do. It seems like a much more useful metric than the level of genuineness we attempt to ascribe.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhist vipassana meditation is based on deconstructing the ego altogether as well as all desires, and recognizing the illusion behind them. So if people are being egocentric, they probably have not progressed very far in their spiritual path.

You'd be surprised. Even very realized people like Chogyam can be boisterous, womanizing, drunks. There are plenty of examples of highly awakened people doing conventionally bad and egocentric things. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff holds a lot of people back, if not dissuade them completely, from trying a little bit of meditation to improve their lives. There's a lot of archetypes of this in /r/streamentry. The te…

Such people may have achieved some sort of genuine stream entry at some point, and then slipped back/regressed into very ego-centered patterns of thinking. Regardless, it calls their advice into question. I'm not surprised that some folks are dissuaded - and I'd caution people against doing "just a little bit" anyway, if they're aiming at anything like actual stream entry/enlightenment. Vipassana meditation demands a serious commitment; the casual, halfway-committed version of good practice is perhaps best represented by western Stoicism, or by common practices (not aiming solely at enlightenment) in e.g. Hinduist-inspired religions.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#187
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also curious about an answer. If I may take a guess from my own experience. People from Western countries tend to start meditation practice with a specific goal in mind as opposed to just doing it naturally as it is part of the culture. For me a goal is gaining mental strength and balance. After meditating for a while I reach that goal (at least to some extent) and get overwhelmed by the energetic surplus. That l…

A meditator is a someone. That someone is a product of duality. The wounds are part of the body and personality. They are not you. To come out of the duality we can leave the meditation open. It doesnt have to take any particular form and it should have no goal in mind. Objectless. It is this sense of beingness or presence that is a true meditation. It is the sense of existence which is the background of every other…

https://deconstructingyourself.com/do-nothing-meditation.htm...

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of time. Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?

I still meditate daily, but more in a maintenance manner, the same way a power lifter goes to the gym out of habit, for health, without the goal of setting new PRs. Most of the time, my mind meditates itself automatically. I am very good at deep work, and concentrating on stuff. It is also easy to deal with stress and emotions in my day to day. My life feels like playing a third person video game with the FOV slider…

Big if true

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#189

The end goal of mindfulness is to make you realize that you don’t exist, you have no free will, and there is no “you.” It can be an unpleasant place to be dropped off in.

We must have different teachers, as I heard it differently:

No Self is the path to Intentional Self.

The goal isn’t the deconstruction of the self, but rather, that through the deconstruction of the self we can act from a place of intention rather than bias and preconceived notions. And in doing so, no longer engage in the random suffering that was thrust upon us — but the intentional suffering that comes from our chosen life.

Life is suffering — the only escape to that is death; instead, we should seek to choose our suffering, as befits our goals.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#190
post #62

Can anyone actually say what “mindfulness” really means? I once met a mindfulness coach who was trying to sell me on his business where he comes onsite and coaches corporate clients on mindfulness. The pitch broke down when he couldn’t articulate to me what the hell was really meant by mindfulness.

To me, it seems one more bullshit fad that nobody is going to talk about in 10 years.
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