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UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

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Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#181

Post by ncmncm »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #164
cptcobalt wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This project also includes wind, which doesn't require sun. "A week's worth of storage" feels somewhat like an armchair simplification. It roughly sounds on target if we're moving toward the march of nines for real-time zero-carbon power supply, but...that honestly doesn't need to be the target expectation for today. Long term goal, yes. Today's targets really should be to get to 90-95% renewable, since chasing the l…

> "A week's worth of storage" feels somewhat like an armchair simplification. It is. The way I've heard it explained by energy experts (or people who were introduced by the media as such) was that storage needs to be on the order of days/weeks, not hours. I'm sure that's something of a crude oversimplification for a lay audience and certainly not a rugged analysis for this particular project. > With the state of the…

You might want a week or month of storage, eventually, but first you want to have installed enough spare generating capacity to charge it while still servicing full load. And, you probably want your week's or month's worth to cost way less than that amount of battery.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#182

Post by tremon »

tinco wrote: post #88
sofixa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. What a load of Brexiteer crap. The UK was never subservient, they were among the top decision makers and powers in the EU. Brexit UK wants to have its cake and eat it too and is simply impossible. You can't be independent from the EU on trade and power simply bec…

Stop being so adverserial. Parent hasn't stated any pro-brexit sentiment so just assume they're arguing in good faith. The whole idea of the EU is that all nations in it are subservient to the commission. We like it that way because that makes the collaboration more rational and it makes the rising tide lift all the boats. Wether you agree with it or not, the idea of the Brexit is that the UK can be strong without th…

The whole idea of the EU is that all nations in it are subservient to the commission.

How is that statement different from stating that the whole idea of the UK is that all countries in the UK are subservient to the Cabinet?

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#183

Post by ncmncm »

danans wrote: post #99
sofixa wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Four hour battery storage for renewables. The way of the future. Only the beginning of the way i hope. 4 hours isn't even close to being enough for "reliable" electricity generation.

4 hours is solidly in the middle of what is needed for the daily peak load management tier of the energy storage problem [1], which is how we experience electricity "reliability" on a day to day basis, and it is the upper end of what is economical for lithium ion batteries. Beyond that, other technologies (pumped hydro, perhaps hydrogen electrolysis) are more economical. 1. https://storagewiki.epri.com/index.php/Ener…

Tankage is much cheaper than batteries.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#184

Post by arinlen »

mike_hearn wrote: post #105
arinlen wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The point of mentioning Brexit is to stress that the physics alone makes this sort of project hard to justify on technical grounds, specially when there is a wealth of renewable energy projects right around Britain's corner. You need to be specially motivated to circumvent any of the low-hanging fruit proje…

I remember doing a bit of spare time research into getting power from the Sahara desert when I was a school kid. The idea is obvious - solar power requires lots of sunshine and land that isn't being used for anything. The UK doesn't have that, the Sahara desert does. If it's an idea obvious enough to occur to a teenager 20 years ago it hardly requires politics to explain why it comes up now, does it? At the time I ga…

> I remember doing a bit of spare time research into getting power from the Sahara desert when I was a school kid. The idea is obvious (...)

I'm afraid you failed to understand the point.

There is no question that Morocco has an impressive potential in solar power. Morocco's hydrogen production project is very exciting.

But that's besides the point, and not the issue being discussed.

What clearly is a bonkers idea and has no technical nor strategic justification, let alone in a national security perspective, is the UK wasting it's resources trying to get renewable sources way down in Africa, specially when there are already a wealth of projects already underway right next door.

For perspective, the Dogger bank is home for some wind farm projects which are already similar energy production capacity, such as the Dogger Bank Wind Farm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_Wind_Farm

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#185

Post by tuatoru »

ncmncm wrote: post #178
Retric wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capacity factor, across 24 hours a 30% capacity factor works out to 7.2 hours at max output. Being able to 4 hours of max output is therefore 55% of the total energy produced in the average day. Grid demand is also significantly higher in the daytime so that 4h of battery allows you to very closely match users demands over 24 hours or ramp up during peak demand and fall back on other sources at night.

Just now, money is overwhelmingly better spent on top-line renewable generating capacity. There is no value in storage you are not generating enough power to keep charged up. Furthermore, cost of storage is falling even faster than wind or solar ever did. Wait until next year, and you get lots more storage for your money. Finally, batteries are good for very short-term storage -- their round-trip efficiency and fast…

> expect to see a lot of anhydrous ammonia long-term storage. Also, hydrogen, and liquid nitrogen.

This is wishful thinking. These are very much research projects at present.

> Also, hydrogen, and liquid nitrogen.

Hydrogen makes no sense as energy storage. The energy costs of compression (and liquefaction, if you do that), and the risks, are just silly. Liquifying and regasifiying nitrogen are energy-expensive too.

It'd be better to combine hydrogen with air-captured carbon to make medium-chain hydrocarbons. We can store those at room temperature and pressure safely for season-long periods of time, as demonstrated by hundreds of millions of motor vehicles and tens of thousands of fuel depots.

Leaks of liquid hydrocarbons are much less likely to kill people than leaks of ammonia.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#186

Post by oliwarner »

petr_tik wrote: post #112
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #6

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

> This sounds like brexiteer project. Given that the UK has left the EU, couldn't you call every trade deal or cultural exchange with a non-EU country a Brexit project? Even if it is, what is wrong with that? The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver, which motivates projects like these Edit: to clarify, i live in London and i didn't vote for Brexit. Regardless of the outc…

Brexiteer, not Brexit.

The latter being a dictionary definition of a bad idea, the first being the buffoons who lied about it, flying kites, tossing dead cats around to manipulate the conversation and ultimately shove it through, half cocked.

This looks like yet another kite to be sold with: "Look what we can do now we're out of that wretched EU".

Possibly a nice idea, aggressively detached from reality.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#187

Post by Retric »

ncmncm wrote: post #178
Retric wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capacity factor, across 24 hours a 30% capacity factor works out to 7.2 hours at max output. Being able to 4 hours of max output is therefore 55% of the total energy produced in the average day. Grid demand is also significantly higher in the daytime so that 4h of battery allows you to very closely match users demands over 24 hours or ramp up during peak demand and fall back on other sources at night.

Just now, money is overwhelmingly better spent on top-line renewable generating capacity. There is no value in storage you are not generating enough power to keep charged up. Furthermore, cost of storage is falling even faster than wind or solar ever did. Wait until next year, and you get lots more storage for your money. Finally, batteries are good for very short-term storage -- their round-trip efficiency and fast…

It doesn’t matter if prices are falling if you make more money this year than you save by waiting an extra year. That’s the issue with hypothetical alternatives, they can’t make you money until you can actually buy them.

As to location. All the equipment you need for moving solar power around the grid like long distance power lines is exactly the same equipment you need for moving battery power at that location around the grid. Even better batteries charged with solar power get to avoid DC>AC inefficiency selling solar to the grid and AC>DC inefficiency charging the batteries. They get to skip out on equipment like redundant DC>AC inverters etc. You are even moving power through cooler power lines that therefore have less resistance.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#188

Post by tuatoru »

qwedf wrote: post #9

The latest Doomberg does a great job in pointing out the practical flaws. https://doomberg.substack.com/p/20000-volts-under-the-sea "The Xlinks project is a pretty good concept, and yet…it needs access to materials already claimed by many others at prices increasing by the day, it needs to build an entire HVDC industry in Britain from the ground up, and it needs money, lots of it."

> it needs to build an entire HVDC industry in Britain from the ground up

Britain already has several HVDC undersea interconnectors with Europe. These are maintained and there is design and construction capability. If not in Britain, then nearby.

1. https://www.northsealink.com/

2. https://www.ifa1interconnector.com/

3. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy... (Scroll down for electricity.)

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#189

Post by tuatoru »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #167
petr_tik wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sounds like brexiteer project. Given that the UK has left the EU, couldn't you call every trade deal or cultural exchange with a non-EU country a Brexit project? Even if it is, what is wrong with that? The people of Britain voted for Brexit and now need their elected officials to deliver, which motivates projects like these Edit: to clarify, i live in London and i didn't vote for Brexit. Regardless of the outc…

I'm just curious if a direct interconnect from Morocco->UK is the best solution from an engineering perspective, or if a Morocco->EU->UK interconnect would work better without the politics.

The latter would work better in terms of energy losses, but would require major overcapacity in the interconnectors between Spain and France (from Spain's and France's point of view). They'd drag their feet.

We are where we are. Politics is a thing.

If it pushes along the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, I don't care if it's "inefficient". Show me a major company that hasn't wasted money or done something in a way that is technically less than optimal.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#190

Post by tuatoru »

munch117 wrote: post #67
KarlKemp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3.5 % per 1,000 km, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current , which comes out to around 10 %.

14% (1,035^3,8)

Delivered power is 0.965^3.8 of input power, 87.3%, so 12.7% loss.

Using the 3.5% per 1000 km factor. Plus, of course, conversion and voltage stepping losses at both ends.

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