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The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

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Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sell both applications and wholesale data at the same time Bloomberg comes to mind since they offer wholesale access to data in addition to all the terminal functions.

Bloomberg's main product offering is still the data feed though. The "application" part of it definitely makes it easier to use but a lot of trading desks build their own algorithms and pricers on top of that data for the functionality they really need. The built in stuff bloomberg has tends to be overly simplified

This has not been my experience. My view of Bloomberg is two primary products: (1) Bloomberg terminal and (2) Bloomberg BPIPE.

(1) is a desktop (and now mobile) application that trader, sales, etc. use to communicate, view raw data, and view derived data in "mini-apps" (price this bond under scenario X, etc.) The base cost is about 25K USD per year (there are local IT costs above the terminal license fees). There is a raw data access API for Excel, but very limited. They block your API access if you try to download too much data. The days of pricing any kind of volume of products from a Excel Bloomberg API is mostly gone. Also, you cannot run it on a server and just screen scrape / use data API all day long.

(2) is a raw data feed service, akin to Reuters. Not well understood by industry outsiders: There is no "all you can eat data service" anywhere in finance. Period. Every primary data source is now carefully guarded with license costs and special rules (no redist, etc.). Some stock exchanges make more money selling data licenses than collection trading fees! I have no idea about BPIPE prices, but I assume expensive and per data source with nearly infinite granularity.

About revenue: (1) Wiki says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_Terminal

If you believe it: 20K USD per terminal and ~325,000 terminals as of 2016. That is 6.5 billion USD per year. Nice.

About revenue: (2) No idea. I cannot find any reliable published stats.

Lastly: I regularly see people argue on HN about an open source version of Bloomberg. It is impossible for two reasons: (a) Network effect in the communication channels -- lots of people mostly use Bloomberg chat / email and hardly use data, besides the trivial. Most people on the buy side (money management, hedge funds, portfolio managers) join Bloomberg to talk to other people on Bloomberg. And: (b) data licensing.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#182

Me: 20 years in the defense space business. Stating my own opinion. This is basically right. The problem with space imagery is that almost everyone who wants it has a niche use case, and those few organizations without a niche use case (the US Weather Service, various militaries, etc) generally want imagery that's so specialized to their own problem that they have to spec, buy, and operate their own orbital assets. T…

But then it almost sounds extremely simple: provide as much raw data as you can (spectrum, resolution, surface coverage) and the users will come. Of course, this is outrageously expensive to do unguided.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#183
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, indeed, exactly what I am arguing. Either: * Just sell data or; * Just sell applications powered by your proprietary source of data Do not: * Sell derived/refined data as a half-measure * Sell both applications and wholesale data at the same time If you feel like that doesn't make sense, you are not alone. Almost everyone in the industry disagrees with my views on this topic based on how they run their busin…

Where does a system like https://picterra.ch/ lie? They seem to provide a way to tune algorithms for your images. Are those "algorithms nobody want", or is that helping niche use-cases (by allowing customisation)? Disclaimer: never actually used their system, just saw presentations about it, which show how one can train an algorithm to count... stuff.

Hey, I'm the lead engineer at Picterra. Would be happy to answer any questions.

What we are trying to do is indeed allow customers to build algorithms tailored to their use cases. We often joke that the reason our ML works is because we are overfitting to customer datasets/use cases. But I think that's somewhat true in the sense that we are not going for "worldwide trees counting" but more for "reliably count cars on these 50 parcels".

It's also interesting to note that a sizeable chunk of our revenue is coming from companies with drone data where it makes even more sense to be specific to customer data (resolution, time of day, geo, etc...).

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> but any one algorithm only serves an extremely niche audience. Forget the algorithm. They need to fix their customer service, their sales process. Customers want pixels, but they need basic services: simple and a predictable price. I want to give a location (pix+radius, four corners or whatever) and a delivery schedule (once a week etc). But when I try to buy that stuff I get package deals, "ask for a quote", and…

> Top of the list for small customers are probably high-end real estate agents… [want to monitor] backyards/pools that are being neglected. This is basically corporate surveillance and I’m not at all comfortable with it. If you changed ‘real estate agent’ to ‘large landlord company’, the public would find this exceptionally unpalatable.

Obviously if you don’t want your pool surveilled by low orbit satellites, you’re free to either raise your home to a higher altitude, or consider relocating to a more private and subterranean dwelling.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#185
Some year ago on HN was a satellite imagery company offering free trial. I was curious about the construction site of my house, whether I can discern where trenches were and such. But their interface stumped me, took time to figure a way to search the dataset by coordinates, then got some zip dataset download and then had again to figure out how to open images. Nothing on them was recognizable.

If they really want new customers they should make this more accessible to laypeople.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#186

Me: 20 years in the defense space business. Stating my own opinion. This is basically right. The problem with space imagery is that almost everyone who wants it has a niche use case, and those few organizations without a niche use case (the US Weather Service, various militaries, etc) generally want imagery that's so specialized to their own problem that they have to spec, buy, and operate their own orbital assets. T…

I've not worked in the industry per se but I'm quite passionate about maps and online maps generally speaking, and I'm curious to find out if the good old way of identifying stuff on maps directly through human interaction (so, not using any ML-stuff) shouldn't be given a second (or a third) thought. Of course, all backed by better tools for said humans, so that they can annotate/label/identify the data better.

I've realised that that might still be a viable option once I started to map the forrest cover in my geographic area based on 150-years-old maps (these excellent maps [1] drawn by the Austrians in the 1860s). Some JS-code for the front-end that helped me "draw out" the forests, then send that data to a Django/Python backend and call it a day. It took me a while to draw those forests out but the job was very easily scalable in terms of human-power, i.e. 10 more me would have probably finished it 10 times faster with a little coordination (for anyone curious the data is in here [2], I'd say it was almost 90% done when I passed on to my next project, as I often do). I was first looking at using some heuristics in order to "automate" some part of the job, but both the false-positives and the false-negatives were just too high, the outputs would have been horrible in terms of accuracy.

[1] https://maps.arcanum.com/en/map/secondsurvey-wallachia/?laye...

[2] https://github.com/mihaitc/forrests/tree/master/counties

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> but any one algorithm only serves an extremely niche audience. Forget the algorithm. They need to fix their customer service, their sales process. Customers want pixels, but they need basic services: simple and a predictable price. I want to give a location (pix+radius, four corners or whatever) and a delivery schedule (once a week etc). But when I try to buy that stuff I get package deals, "ask for a quote", and…

> Top of the list for small customers are probably high-end real estate agents… [want to monitor] backyards/pools that are being neglected. This is basically corporate surveillance and I’m not at all comfortable with it. If you changed ‘real estate agent’ to ‘large landlord company’, the public would find this exceptionally unpalatable.

Do you think you have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to things that are both outdoors and literally viewable from space?

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are like 2 million farms in USA, and if that information is worth to them something like $10/month then that's a potential market worth quarter of a billion per year..

That's a poor assumption to base a business off of.

No post body was provided.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#189
When I was an agronomist I used satellite imagery a lot for monitoring farm crops for our customers. Started in the early eighties going up in a Cessna laying on my belly where the passenger seat was sticking a 35mm camera out a repair port.

But that got old and started researching satellite options. Problems was our company entire sales area was three West Michigan counties. All the companies wanted to sell me, I forget the term but say a tract (scene?), that was half the state.

I didn't have a problem with the price per acre but wanted to buy by the section or 640 acres. It didn't make a lot of sense to buy the township but they wouldn't even sell me by the county. At the time probably 5% of my customers wanted this service and only wanted to buy just part of their acreage.

I asked all these vendors why they couldn't sell me by the township. They routinely answered they'd lose money because they couldn't sell the rest of the tract. I said now you understand my problem, at a certain point you've got to break up a tract or give up on the market. Most of the company's ended up leaving ag.

I eventually found a company that would sell by the section at a higher but still manageable price. Course then I discovered that in four flyovers a season the majority had clouds over the field and you couldn't see anything ;FYI The military has satellites using radar to see through the clouds, but in thirty years that tech hasn't made it to the commercial operators.

The answer I think is automated drones that fly a circuit. The tech has been available for a few years but the government won't approve it for that use. In fact the FAA won't even let a Detroit company demonstrate they could successfully evade objects, they ran out of funding and shut their doors ;<(.

Re: The satellite imagery industry still has no idea what customers want

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Top of the list for small customers are probably high-end real estate agents… [want to monitor] backyards/pools that are being neglected. This is basically corporate surveillance and I’m not at all comfortable with it. If you changed ‘real estate agent’ to ‘large landlord company’, the public would find this exceptionally unpalatable.

Do you think you have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to things that are both outdoors and literally viewable from space?

When you go outdoors, people are free to look at you, but that does not mean (as a rule) they can shoot pictures of you without your permission. Same principle can be applied to your property. Like, if a stalker takes a photo of your window hourly or keeps track of your car – that could be treated as infringement of privacy. If a door is unlocked, that does not mean you're allowed to trespass.
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