Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#181

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:06 AM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #153

onion2k wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack is slower. You can cover far more in a face to face meeting (or a video call) in less time. This is easily provable too. Have a 30 minute call with someone, and then have a 30 minute Slack chat with them. It becomes very clear that Slack doesn't work as well for that sort of comms. Slack is brilliant for asynchronous stuff, or very short chats, but it doesn't work for longer things.

Slack was just an example though. It could be a google doc. It could be anything written down. In what instance is talking about something better (I guess we’d have to define better but just assume better = retention) than reading about something? If I’m reading about it I can always read it again. In a meeting I’m going to forget 90% of it the moment I walk out the door (or end the zoom meeting).

In a collaboratively edited doc (which we should do more of, not less), the 6th person in read a different doc than the 2nd person, yet they both “read the doc”

That dynamic is much reduced in a synchronous meeting because everyone’s at the same meeting.

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#182

Post by intellirogue » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:12 AM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #133

As someone who has worked on startups, side gigs, and only around 6 months at a “real” company. I’m always blown away at how many meetings there are in corporate America. What are you even meeting about? Why aren’t you doing hands on keyboard work? Why does a decision need to be made in a room, with everyone pretending to listen? Why are you presenting something to me when I’ll comprehend it far better if I read it,…

Yeah, the company I work for recently got acquired by a US corporate. I went from one ~15min stand-up call a day to 3-4 hours of meetings per day, all mandated by the US VPs. Our company has had to double our number of developers just to get the same amount of work done that we did pre-acquisition.

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#183

Post by joe__f » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:12 AM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #180

snakey wrote: post #163

Forgive me for this digression and for sounding selfish, but as a junior, I’ve really struggled for the last 2+ years to fully adapt to remote / hybrid working. I’m wondering if anyone has advice on how I can continue to grow and become a top-class engineer within a remote environment? Based on my experience so far, it’s very difficult to both onboard and mentor a junior from a remote setting. It’s not impossible, ho…

> how I can continue to grow and become a top-class engineer within a remote environment? Yes, three things: - Learn to write detailed yet succinct prose, and practice this often. - Learn to unblock yourself, so that asynchronous communication does not become a barrier. Be prepared to dig in at least 1-2 layers of abstraction below where you typically work and spend lots of time researching unfamiliar topics. - Decid…

When you say "make sure you are getting n years of experience and not one year of experience n times", do you mean to try and work on something different each year? Or did you mean something else?

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#184

Post by tobyhinloopen » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:14 AM UTC

tuckerman wrote: post #138

freyr wrote: post #40

This is the most frustrating part of being forced back to the Bay Area. Even before the pandemic, we always had distributed meetings, with people calling in from various buildings, conference rooms, phone booths, etc. So nothing changes between last month and this month, except that managers get peace-of-mind knowing I’m calling in from somewhere on the premises, and I’m back living in a place where I can’t afford a…

I had plenty of interactions at Google over lunch, in the hallway, while taking a break, etc that we brought to a whiteboard and either ended up with a potentially interesting project or saved us time by finding out something didn’t make sense. These often came from a series of multiple, low stakes conversations that were much more difficult to have remotely. I don’t contend they are impossible, but for me they were…

After a few years of remote working, me and some colleagues just randomly call each other with “watercooler conversations”. IE About once or twice a day, we are on slack and just call each other to answer and continue talking about random things and ideas

In my experience, this is the closest to just being together in an office without being in an office

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#185

Post by xarope » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

snakey wrote: post #163

Forgive me for this digression and for sounding selfish, but as a junior, I’ve really struggled for the last 2+ years to fully adapt to remote / hybrid working. I’m wondering if anyone has advice on how I can continue to grow and become a top-class engineer within a remote environment? Based on my experience so far, it’s very difficult to both onboard and mentor a junior from a remote setting. It’s not impossible, ho…

During COVID, as a CTO, I tell my team to DM me after stand-ups if they aren't sure about their tasks or work, or even how to get started. I'm more than happy to spend 2-3 hours on a separate remote call with an individual, where we go through a socratic'ish discovery, using things like draw.io or mermaid to quickly sketch out concepts and architecture. Often this then sparks them to go through their own discovery, and the next day or 2 they will request yet-another call to then propose their design and implementation, and this is yet-another opportunity for us to discuss and hone their work.

So in-short, yes, self-learning is required (always is, always will be), but if your senior can do some sort of guided self-learning, I'd like to think you would then gain the confidence and be more than capable of picking up the necessary skills, along with the sometimes-serendipity that comes from such paths to discovery.

(sadly, my CEO is does not share this remote work mindset, which is why if anybody is looking for a CTO, please DM me...!)

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#186

Post by throwaway5371 » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

Half my friends say they work less than 1 hour a day remote. Literally attend standup, complain they are somewhat blocked or investigating something and then just work on personal projects or just game. The rest are doing chores because their spouses are not considering them working because they are "home". All kinds of chores from pick up the kids to take the dog to the vet.

Whoever says overall productivity increases, is probably talking about very disciplined individuals.

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#187

Post by maccard » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #137

proc0 wrote: post #87

I was thinking returning to the office is sort of a 'prisoner's dilemma'. Everyone has to make the same choice for it to be effective, otherwise the office experience is diminished and working from home is better at that point, since you'll be in remote meetings anyway. I still think it's a matter of control that the office is preferred. There's absolutely no reason why software problems can't be solved remotely, esp…

The reason to have anyone in an office is because it makes managers and executives feel better. It’s really that simple. No one who has ever worked remotely themselves could possibly believe that employees are more productive in an office. I think the delusion most people tell themselves about in person being better for spontaneous conversations, and better productivity comes down to just wanting human interaction. W…

> No one who has ever worked remotely themselves could possibly believe that employees are more productive in an office

Anyone who makes a statement like this is naive ay best. Some people thrive on environments with other people around. Some people don't have a home space conducive to working (either lack of space or having other people living with them). Some people work _much_ better in areas of places where they have supervision; that doesn't mean they need to be babysat just that having someone around keepz them in line and performing well.

> Working from home is better in every instance where it’s possible.

For you (and for me). But that doesn't mean it's better for everyone, and dogmatically claiming it is weakens the argument for everyone else ("well Fred needs to be in the office and if it doesn't work for Fred it doesn't work for everyone")

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#188

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #25

I recently spent a week in the office with my team. First time I'd had office time with any team since mid-2018. It was really, really, really nice. I've been a diehard work-from-home guy for ages. Why spend perhaps 10+ hours per week commuting? It's a productivity and environmental nightmare. But... sometimes? Yeah. It's nice to be in the room with other smart people, solving hard problems. I didn't realize I missed…

> I'm baffled by the polarized and inflammatory replies to this post. I was just relating a personal experience. I don't have opinions on how others should work. You want to be 100% fully remote forever? Cool. I don't think you're wrong. I'll continue to be remote a majority of the time, myself.

The problem is that choices aren't independent. While they're not using this language, you can see that other people are thinking of you as a "scab" for having crossed the "picket line" of returning to the office, and that admitting there is any benefit to being in the office at all will result in their life being made worse. That's why it's so heated.

I wouldn't mind being in the office. I do mind commuting, and I definitely would mind getting COVID as my wife is in the vulnerable category.

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#189

Post by vladvasiliu » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

throwaway5371 wrote: post #186

Half my friends say they work less than 1 hour a day remote. Literally attend standup, complain they are somewhat blocked or investigating something and then just work on personal projects or just game. The rest are doing chores because their spouses are not considering them working because they are "home". All kinds of chores from pick up the kids to take the dog to the vet. Whoever says overall productivity increas…

That may be the case, but if you're prone to dicking around and generally not working, there are plenty of ways to not work while your butt is sitting on the company's chair.

If I had a dollar for every person I've seen randomly browsing Facebook or similar at the office, I wouldn't need to work anymore.

Now I understand that not all people are the same towards work and motivation, and I particularly sympathize with the spouse thing. So I think the broader issue here is management attempting to impose a single One True Way for everybody, which doesn't seem to exist.

I also think that the spouse thing may be somewhat a question of habit. As in, after a while, the spouse may end up appreciating that your being at home doesn't mean you're free to do whatever. But you're still able to go start laundry when taking a five-minute break, which is still extremely valuable and couldn't be done from the office.

Re: Employees are returning to the office to sit on zoom calls

#190

Post by throwaway5371 » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:55 AM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #189

throwaway5371 wrote: post #186

Half my friends say they work less than 1 hour a day remote. Literally attend standup, complain they are somewhat blocked or investigating something and then just work on personal projects or just game. The rest are doing chores because their spouses are not considering them working because they are "home". All kinds of chores from pick up the kids to take the dog to the vet. Whoever says overall productivity increas…

That may be the case, but if you're prone to dicking around and generally not working, there are plenty of ways to not work while your butt is sitting on the company's chair. If I had a dollar for every person I've seen randomly browsing Facebook or similar at the office, I wouldn't need to work anymore. Now I understand that not all people are the same towards work and motivation, and I particularly sympathize with…

of course you can waste time in the office as well, from people joining every meeting and asking "but does it scale" to people playing table tennis, but in general its harder to do than remote