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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

181–190 of 785 posts

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#181

okay this is amazing. but wtf is this sentence? "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

That sentence is fine

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#182
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its a run-on at all, let alone a text book one.

It should be broken into two sentences Original: "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them." Sentence 1: No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon. Sentence 2: Many union leaders regard…

"Run-on" has an actual textbook definition. This sentence is very long and clunky, and should probably be broken into two sentences for readability, but it's not a run-on.

To illustrate, this would be a run-on:

No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, many union leaders regard Amazon as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#183

Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.

More generally unions can be one-sided in a sense.

They try to make up for the lack of responsibility of corporations towards their workers, which is important (keeps them in check), but then there is the issue of bureaucratic bloat and power concentration within unions (organizers, lawyers etc.) so they can become detached from the actual workers and their trade. At the same time there are highly skilled workers with high work ethic who benefit less from unions than their peers.

In my opinion a an ideal union is organized bottom up. Lawyers and organizers are there to support union workers and most importantly don't create a hierarchical structure where all negotiations happen at the top. Secondly a union should strive for the highest quality and work ethic among their workers. One should be proud to be part of one and have values and principles to strive for.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#184

Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.

Public sector unions are a different beast. The economic argument for unions is that they provide a counterweight towards corporate monopoly powers. But in a public setting, the opposition are voters and taxpayers. We as voters can say we want schools to re-open or police to be held accountable for their actions, and they can collectively bargain against our wishes. So, by their nature public sector unions are vaguel…

> So, by their nature public sector unions are vaguely anti-democratic.

Consider that the public sector unions can donate to the political campaigns of the politicians they are at the bargaining table with and it becomes a little less vague.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#185
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wages are typically one of many priorities for a union. I know a couple teachers who tried the charter school thing and discovered non-union teaching has its own issues.

Non-elite private schools often have worse comp and/or working conditions than public schools in the same area. Which is surprising to some who assume "private school = big bucks", but there are lots of charter schools or religious private schools (which is most private schools, AFAIK) where that's definitely not the case.

When I lived in Los Angeles, a friend who taught at an "elite" private school also reported worse compensation than at comparable public schools.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#186
post #2

Unions are the most useful when you're dealing with monopolies. Where there is fierce competition in an industry, most workers probably feel that unions are not needed, as they can get a better paying job by switching companies within the same industry whenever they like. So I wonder if the recent rise in union interest is a symptom of the fact that in the U.S. a lot of industries have been monopolized or oligopolize…

Yes, but there is a second requirement for unions (in the US, anyway), which is that they have to have a tight enough labor market to have negotiating leverage. Otherwise, the company just closes the factory/store/warehouse/whatever, and moves it elsewhere. Amazon, in 2022, would appear to satisfy both requirements.

This is the fundamental flaw with unions in the United States. In other countries, if a company retaliates against their employee union then all the other unions will refuse to do business with that company. The point of unions, which no one in America gets, is that the union should be directly involved in business decisions. So as soon as there is a union, those employees have to allow that plant to close. Management just doesn't get to run around doing as they please. That's the whole fucking point.

I'm not interested in being part of a union if the only points of negotiation are pay/hours/benefits. I want a say over profitability overall. Who we do business with and how. What products we offer, and why. And how we service and treat our customers. Google employees banding together to prevent the company from entering certain lines of businesses, for instance. That is progress.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#187
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence of anything you just said?

[flagged]

> “low pay” despite having 3 months vacation every year

My kids' teachers get in as early as 5am, and I'm frequently getting emails and grade notifications from them as late as 9pm. They're not working anything close to 40 hour weeks during the school year.

> despite other workers in other industries going to work every day

This seems like an argument for unions in those other industries.

> Lest we forget the studies showing the harm to society, especially young males, that comes about from them being brought up in a “progressive” matriarchal system that in many areas teaches them that they’re bad.

Ah, yes, "the studies". A great citation.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#188

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

Its very on brand that the first response to this on HN is more or less:

"Okay, hear me out, but what if Unions in America are really _too strong_?".

Very counterintuitive thinking.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#189
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a prisoner's dilemma? Why would a union give its benefits to someone who didn't join?

Because not all the benefits of membership are excludable. Unions that hold employers accountable to following labor laws and safety regulations benefit all employees, same with annual raises, removing abusive managers, better benefits, overtime pay [1], etc. etc. Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case. [1] Some unions manage to get payroll benefits for…

"Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case."

This is absolutely false. These are just a few anecdotes but there are several

"An arbitrator in 2007 found that teacher Alexis Grullon had victimized young girls with repeated hugging, "incidental though not accidental contact with one student's breast" and "sexually suggestive remarks." The teacher had denied all these charges. In the end the arbitrator found him "unrepentant," yet punished him with only a six-month suspension."

"In 2016 and 2017, Poway Unified School District officials found that Westview High School coaches Derek Peterson and Tim Medlock sent inappropriate text messages to underage students. Those officials found that they violated school policy and in response, issued each of them warnings. Both men continue to teach at Westview High."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443437504577547...

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2019/08/15/how-do-misbehaving-te...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#190

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

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