Live data from Hacker News

Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

mcdreeamiemusings.com

181–190 of 204 posts

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#181
post #170
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speculate. I would push back on the idea that they would not have to ground the Shuttle. If they thought the foam could cause a loss of crew, they would ground the Shuttle until they fully understood the problem. That's exactly what happened in the aftermath of Columbia . > Why didn't they go back and test with 'real world' foam sizes? That's exactly what they did after the incident (while the Shuttles wer…

So in your opinion, the slide said that with the impact of the foam it would have been very unlikely that the tile would have failed? In that case the inpretation by NASA of the slide was correct. Which is weird because slide also mentions that a small increase in energy can have a disproportional effect. I find it weird that they would rely on their model (for extrapolation) when they know that the behavior of the t…

Here's how I would interpret the slide, doing my best to prevent hindsight from biasing my opinion (since we already know what happened, it's tough to do).

Bullet 1: We looked at all the model data

Bullet 2: The model tends to predict deeper penetration than what we see in practice.

Bullet 3: The model penetration is related to particle velocity

Bullet 4: The penetration is related to the particle mass and surface area (they say volume)

Bullet 5: The foam is soft, so it takes a lot of energy to penetrate the hard ceramic tiles

Bullet 6: It is possible for the foam to penetrate the tiles, though, given enough energy

Bullet 7: If the foam does penetrate, it can cause a bad day

Bullet 8: It doesn't take much beyond the penetration energy to cause a bad day

Bullet 9: We haven't run tests that match the conditions of the strike so we don't have good data

Bullet 10: The foam piece is much, much larger than the stuff we tested

Given that, I would summarize it to say "The foam strike is much larger than what we've tested. All we know is this may mean there was significantly more energy involved, and if it's above the penetration threshold it can be bad. But the model seems to be overly conservative regarding penetration"

Now, the difficult decision is in the constraints. The astronauts didn't have the fuel to get to the ISS. They didn't have EVA suits to attempt a repair or evaluate the damage. There was no plan in place for a rescue mission. Atlantis was being prepped in FL, but was not currently ready. The astronauts probably have, at most, 30 days of oxygen.

Option 1: Allow for re-entry. Some had pegged this at about a 30% chance of success, but I have no idea what that is based upon.

Option 2: Scramble Atlantis to try a rescue mission. This is very risky for a number of reasons. Atlantis wasn't ready, meaning it would have to be rushed, increasing the chances that errors occur. Also, this type of mission was never attempted before, where two Shuttles are within spitting distance and astronauts have to migrate from one to the other. In order for the timeline to be feasible, a decision must be made within 1 day, 2 tops. This would then potentially risk two Shuttle crews instead of one, with an inherently risky mission.

I don't know what other options were available. Given when it occurred in launch window and how long it took to understand there was a problem, an abort wasn't possible. Shuttle did not have a launch abort engine like capsules do. Keep in mind, these decisions have to be made under large amounts of uncertainty. The extent of the damage was not fully known. People could scramble to run additional tests to gather data, but by that time the window on Option 2 may have closed. It's easy to arm-chair quarterback this after the fact, but there weren't good, clear options at the moment.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#182
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another NASA screw-up that they're trying to pin on the vendor engineers, just like Challenger. And, for context, Edward Tufte, whose review of the slides is being referenced in this article, is the same one who misunderstood and misrepresented what the actual issue was during the briefing the night before the Challenger launch, in his paper reviewing the presentation the engineers made then. Edit: previous HN disc…

Yeah, its very hard to say that Challenger was because of a miscommuncation from the vendor engineers. They wrote out directly [0] "Recommendations: O-ring temperature must be > 53F at launch", and the temperature of the air at launch was 36F and measurements on the solid rocket boosters (where the o-rings are located) got down to 25F and 8F [1]. But their recommendation was challenged by the NASA SRB managers. And a…

> their recommendation was challenged by the NASA SRB managers. And after an offline discussion the SRB vendor came back and had changed their opinion that it was safe.

Yes, because the Thiokol managers overrode their engineers and said it was OK to launch.

> And the NASA SRB manager never brought up the o-ring temperature concern to the rest of the management team.

That was probably because NASA had already classified the O-ring issue as a Criticality 1 flight risk, which is supposed to mean that a failure could result in loss of vehicle and loss of life and that the Shuttle can't fly until the issue is resolved--and then waived it. So it wasn't as if the O-ring issue was a new one or that NASA wasn't already aware of its seriousness.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#183

Diane Vaughn's The Challenger Launch Decision misattributes responsibility for the disaster to the meeting in which a similar slide was shown. When the shuttle design was finalized in the late 1970s they knew it had a 2-3% chance of a hull loss per launch. They were still planning to launch it 50 times a year so that would have meant losing a shuttle and crew every year! The shuttle had hundreds of critical flaws and…

You can broadly say that both Challenger and Columbia disasters can be attributed to failures in communication. But the Rogers Commission Report (presidential commission for investigating Challenger) doesn't really show quite the same scenario. At the Flight Readiness Review for the solid rocket boosters before launch the engineers of Morton Thiokol (the solid rocket booster manufacturer) objected to launch because o…

If it hadn’t been one thing it would have been another. The next two missions after STS-51-L were planned to have two shuttles on the pad simultaneously and both of them with thin-skinned liquid fuel upper stages in the cargo bays.

Charles Perron, in the book Normal Accidents warns of the tendency of people to subtract from the safety margin of a successful system in the pursuit of speed, performance, profits, etc.

It does boggle the mind however that with so much documentation for the Shuttle they never thought to specify a minimum launch temperature!

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#184
Wow, 7 lifes at stake and still managers can decide to "skip smaller text" because if it is smaller it is definitely less important...

I agree: it's an awful slide. But the information was there. And I can imagine that the engineers were asked to assemble that presentation in a couple days, so I'd be surprised if they could do anything better.

I agree: an outsider would not understand a word of that slide. So what? What was the audience of that presentation? Why did the audience not read the slide / documentation beforehand? Why was it not understandable by them?

Again: the point here is the stakes. Would I read such a presentation for my day-to-day work? Probably not. Would I read it until I understand every single word if there were 7 lifes at stake? OF COURSE! Would I try to understand the engineers that had to assemble a comprehensive and credible document in a matter of days, and do my part of the work? If it was my day-to-day job, probably not. If there were 7 lifes at stake? OF COURSE.

So yeah, terrible slide. Don't try to justify people not reading it, though.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#185

Kinda pointless to show the slide without the audio of the presenter to go with it. Unless we're thinking the presenter just read the slide verbatim with no extra context, and no questions were asked, which would essentially defeat the purpose of having a presenter and audience present at the same time. I know I've seen presenters actually do that, but the author didn't provide any indication that that's what happene…

I think blaming the slide/presentation is severely affected by the hindsight bias - of course, knowing the outcomes, we can find loads of issues with the slide. More importantly, it is always easy to declare a "human factor" incident and blame the human for "bad slides". But the very fact that such an important decision (re-entry) was (presumably) made as a result of Boeing engineers presenting to NASA officials/managers is eyebrow raising. The fact that this type of an issue (foam hitting the tiles) was well know in advance and yet not properly addressed indicates a systemic organizational problems. It would be great to study those organizational factors and processes that resulted in both tragedies: how the risk was managed? how NASA "drifted" into failure? I believe focusing on a slide completely misses the point.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#186
post #181
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your opinion, the slide said that with the impact of the foam it would have been very unlikely that the tile would have failed? In that case the inpretation by NASA of the slide was correct. Which is weird because slide also mentions that a small increase in energy can have a disproportional effect. I find it weird that they would rely on their model (for extrapolation) when they know that the behavior of the t…

Here's how I would interpret the slide, doing my best to prevent hindsight from biasing my opinion (since we already know what happened, it's tough to do). Bullet 1: We looked at all the model data Bullet 2: The model tends to predict deeper penetration than what we see in practice. Bullet 3: The model penetration is related to particle velocity Bullet 4: The penetration is related to the particle mass and surface ar…

This was the sixth time that exact piece had broken off and hit the vehicle. It was one roll of the dice too many. And by the way, Columbia had plenty of O2 but only 30 days worth of CO2 scrubber capacity.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most slide decks I ever see I see long after they are presented. As a result I want slide decks to stand alone -- that or else video to be published instead of slide decks. I use presenter notes precisely for what you're describing. My actual slides are sparse, but I distribute slides with full presenter notes so all the main points get across in a written form after the fact, without distracting from the talk. In P…

Yeah, this is a good idea. I'd add a tip: start writing your notes in the speaker notes and leave the slides blank, instead of the other way around (which is kind of what PowerPoint's UI pushes you towards). Only create the actual slide content after refining your speaker notes once or twice. For me, at least, I find it's much easier to add content to the blank slide than it is to refine (aka: erase words from) the s…

> start writing your notes in the speaker notes and leave the slides blank, instead of the other way around (which is kind of what PowerPoint's UI pushes you towards). Only create the actual slide content after refining your speaker notes once or twice.

At that point, you might as well extract those notes into a proper technical report—which is the _actual_ conclusion that Tufte came to:

> Attempting to have slides serve both as projected visuals and as stand-alone handouts makes for bad visuals and bad documentation. Yet, this is a typical, acceptable approach. PowerPoint (or Keynote) is a tool for displaying visual information, information that helps you tell your story, make your case, or prove your point. PowerPoint is a terrible tool for making written documents, that's what word processors are for.

(Aside: Did anyone actually click through and read Tufte's original "PowerPoint Does Rocket Science" (that this piece borrows liberally from—and then perverts)? This piece amounts to middling-quality reblog spam, except worse—because it comes with the added downside that it injects some synthesis about the slide in question (containing "a huge amount of text") being described as too long. Anyone following up and checking sources will see that not only is this not supported by Tufte's work, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that what is presented here as a summary of the work of Tuft et al runs counter to what they had to say.

It gets truly bizarre when you start reviewing the samples that Tufte provided. It turns out that the slide pictured in this article is not even the slide that was "in play" during the relevant incident. If this blog post were a serious publication (instead of a grey area, slightly scummy, content-marketing afterthought that it is), it would constitute academic fraud...)

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#189
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's how I would interpret the slide, doing my best to prevent hindsight from biasing my opinion (since we already know what happened, it's tough to do). Bullet 1: We looked at all the model data Bullet 2: The model tends to predict deeper penetration than what we see in practice. Bullet 3: The model penetration is related to particle velocity Bullet 4: The penetration is related to the particle mass and surface ar…

This was the sixth time that exact piece had broken off and hit the vehicle. It was one roll of the dice too many. And by the way, Columbia had plenty of O2 but only 30 days worth of CO2 scrubber capacity.

Thanks for correcting on the CO2.

>This was the sixth time that exact piece had broken off and hit the vehicle.

That was part of the problem and what is meant by the foam shedding being "in family." They had witnessed it enough (along with foam shedding elsewhere) without consequence that it wasn't really considered a credible risk. Until it happened during a period of the launch where the delta-v made it a different scenario, with an energy that caused unexpected characteristics about the foam.

This is second hand knowledge, but the person I know involved in the testing said they had a really hard time recreating the damage to tiles on the specs they were given after Columbia. By chance, they decided to turn the gun beyond the quoted specs (as I understand it), and all of a sudden the foam acted like a hard chunk of debris. I think it's hard for people to grasp how much is unknown, even after a disaster. Often, it's only in hindsight where it seems obvious.

Re: Death by PowerPoint: the slide that killed seven people (2019)

#190
post #29

Linked from Tufte’s article, I found this interesting comment from someone’s experience at Microsoft: [1] > Attempting to have slides serve both as projected visuals and as stand-alone handouts makes for bad visuals and bad documentation. Yet, this is a typical, acceptable approach. PowerPoint (or Keynote) is a tool for displaying visual information, information that helps you tell your story, make your case, or prov…

What's are "screen-shaped pages"? My screens are all kinds of ratios and orientations. I wish pdf would die. It's a left over vestage of a paper world. It's also left over from a non-connected, non-international world A4 vs US Letter. PDF really has no place in this smartphone first world

> PDF really has no place in this smartphone first world

:shivers:

Makes me think of being forced to dig a hole with tweezers.

Post reply on HN