Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#181

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

avasylev wrote: post #163

warner_of_doom wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one side started and continues the war Not true. You have to look at the entire political situation in Ukraine, starting at least since 2003-4. And, especially 2014 and the US-backed putsch that took place that year.

I'm well aware of political situation in Ukraine. I took part in the protests of 2004 that led to "US-backed putsch", had nothing to do with USA. You're stripping Ukrainian people of any agency. Not everything is secretly manipulated by USA or Russia, people of the country are not mindless bots.

This time it wasn't very secret though, they were quite open about it.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#182

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:44 PM UTC

foogazi wrote: post #68

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. Who is we ? A) President Z and the Ukrainian army can literally wave the white flag and let the Russian tanks roll into Kiev - they are the ones doing the sacrifice here B) Or President Putin can give the order to withdraw Who else need to be involved here ?

The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#183

Post by inglor_cz » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:45 PM UTC

credit_guy wrote: post #154

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

""Not one inch", said NATO some decades ago. "

I don't think there was any kind of commitment about this. Definitely not in a form of a signed treaty.

https://www.rferl.org/a/nato-expansion-russia-mislead/312636...

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#184

Post by inglor_cz » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:47 PM UTC

throwaways85989 wrote: post #161

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game. The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered. Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing…

As Václav Havel used to say, the problem with Russia is that it does not know where exactly it ends.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#185

Post by inglor_cz » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:50 PM UTC

warner_of_doom wrote: post #167

BitwiseFool wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0…

> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.

This kind of sharp ideological turn is typical for outbreak of wars.

From what I have read, both the 1870 Prussian-French war and the outbreak of WWI in 1914 were followed by huge outpouring of militarist attitudes, even though there wasn't even radio (much less TV or Internet) and most common people didn't read newspapers, or rarely so.

We seem to have a collective subroutine for turning into murderous apes in our societal firmware. It was probably adaptive once. It may not be as adaptive in the nuclear age.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#186

Post by Grustaf » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:50 PM UTC

Instinctively it makes sense that Putin doesn't want NATO on his doorsteps, but at the same time, why not? He already has NATO in the Baltics, and it's not like NATO would try to invade Russia just because they are neighbours. They are showing now very clearly that they are not interested in a conflict with Russia.

Sure I understand it's not black and white, but NATO is already the stronger party, by far, so what does it REALLY matter if they put up some more bases nearby?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#187

Post by inglor_cz » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:52 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #186

Instinctively it makes sense that Putin doesn't want NATO on his doorsteps, but at the same time, why not? He already has NATO in the Baltics, and it's not like NATO would try to invade Russia just because they are neighbours. They are showing now very clearly that they are not interested in a conflict with Russia. Sure I understand it's not black and white, but NATO is already the stronger party, by far, so what doe…

I don't believe this is about NATO.

What Putin does not want is Ukraine as a democratic state where a president loses an election and steps down peacefully. Ukraine is "small Russia" and Russians could start asking questions.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#188

Post by foogazi » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:53 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #182

foogazi wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. Who is we ? A) President Z and the Ukrainian army can literally wave the white flag and let the Russian tanks roll into Kiev - they are the ones doing the sacrifice here B) Or President Putin can give the order to withdraw Who else need to be involved here ?

The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on.

> The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on

Is that why they keep fighting?

OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#189

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #169

s1artibartfast wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why did Russia raise the stakes in December? Sure, NATO's eastward push has demonstrably increased tensions but the eastward push has been frozen since about 2014 since countries can't join NATO if they have territorial conflicts. Formal joining was on hold, but everything else was accelerating since 2014. Most notably arms shipments, military funding, and NATO/US troops in Ukraine. At some point, there are simply t…

> Formal joining was on hold, but everything else was accelerating since 2014. Most notably arms shipments, military funding, and NATO/US troops in Ukraine Yes, after suffering defeat in an unprovoked invasion and occupation by Russia, Ukraine cranked up arms purchases and outside training for it's military. Blaming this on NATO and not the invader is...beyond stupid.

I was answering a specific question as to why now, not assigning blame or cause. There we also lots of donated arms funded by NATO.

Keep in mind that in this time period the US also had a bombing campaign on Russian allied Syria and was actively killing Russian troops there.

My point is not to say one side is right or wrong, but show that Russia and US relations were very hostile, with attacks, military posturing, and threats from both sides.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#190

Post by mc32 » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

thraneh wrote: post #165

credit_guy wrote: post #154

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

What is NATO's objective except to defend the member countries from aggressors? As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, perhaps what is happening is about the control of natural resources. The entire situation is then politically motivated. Aren't NATO and Ukraine then simply actors that have been strung along? (Obviously at great cost to Ukraine now.) This would also explain why EU has been so quick to respo…

I think Russia fears an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish approach to geopolitics where their historic power is diminished or extinguished by an encroaching NATO as it absorbs nations at the periphery of the previous local hegemon.