Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

marginalrevolution.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 263 posts

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#181

Post by slg »

postalrat wrote: post #119
slg wrote: post #43

Sanctions are often universal rather than person specific. Grischuk isn't being banned for his specific political beliefs. He is being banned as an action against his country. Some of the ways we punish that country are by punishing its people. It doesn't mean the people receiving that punishment are guilty of anything, it is just the method of putting pressure on that country's government to reverse course. This is…

So there is no reason Alexander Grischuk should comment about the conflict. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

It is questionable morally to only comment on this situation in a way designed to personally benefit you.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#182

Post by rosndo »

Note that this post isn’t really about Grischuk, rather the author is pissed about sanctions on Russian oligarchs.

The last paragraph is incredibly revealing:

> if those individuals are found guilty, and the process generates yacht seizure as the appropriate remedy, bring it on. But just taking the yachts without true due process? Nein, Danke.

This is a criticism of the overall sanctions regime disguised as something else entirely. This person believes that Putins buddies assets should be left untouched.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#183

Post by goto11 »

plandis wrote: post #178
wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

What is the purpose of the ban? Is it really doing anything to undermine Russia’s leadership? My guess is that this harms chess players who happen to be Russian but who have no control over the government and doesn’t do anything to hinder the actual Russian government in any meaningful way.

The purpose of the ban is to weaken and undermine the Putin regime. Of course it is unfortunate for the players not getting to play a chess match, but if this ban (along with all the other economic and cultural sanctions) shorten the war by just a day, surely that sacrifice would be well worth it.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#184

Post by moralestapia »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #139
moralestapia wrote: post #118

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they'r…

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

If a Russian in America gets hurt and goes to a hospital, should it be denied medical attention? Where do you draw the line, actually?

If I'm not Russian but my parents are, should I be sanctioned as well? Again, where do you draw the line?

If you happened to be at Russia, would you be okay if everyone denied their services to you?

If your country got involved into a conflict, and you don't even live there anymore, and people started treating you like a pariah, would you feel be fine with that?

Some guys thought about all these things, and wrote:

"Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the POLITICAL, JURISDICTIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL STATUS OF THE COUNTRY OR TERRITORY TO WHICH A PERSON BELONGS, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty."

I don't think that's open to interpretation but YMMV. Check it out by yourself at, https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

I think it's made by some guys at the UN or something, they seem to know a thing or two about human rights.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#185

Post by s1artibartfast »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #139
moralestapia wrote: post #118

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they'r…

This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 editio…

I think you are simply describing collective punishment. You are making the case that collective punishment is easier and more fair because you don't even consider about if any individual person punished is deserving or innocent.

It is like Israel bulldozing random Palestine homes because someone else fired a rocket. It is like people beating up random Chinese on the streets of San Francisco because of some decision Xi Jinping made

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#186

Post by s1artibartfast »

dandanua wrote: post #30
sethbannon wrote: post #7

For those curious, Alexander Grischuk did put out a fairly strong statement of condemnation of the invasion: https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-ru... Pretty brave of him.

It does nothing. It's a statement for the west audience. He can't say the same in Russian for the Russian audience loudly. Because in this case he will be put in jail for years. Wake up, Russia is a fascists state. Which is on the blood run.

So perhaps we should find the Russians in our own communities and punish them as well

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#187

Post by jjgreen »

roveo wrote: post #161
jjgreen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an autocratic leader that does not represent them They did elect him (with 76.69% of the vote).

This is incorrect. Electoral rating of Putin (as of 2021) is around 30%. The central election committee will just declare the results that Putin wants. People in the West who live in (relatively) democratic countries just go around saying "Russians elected him" without actually understanding what living under an autocratic rule is like. Putin never won a free and fair election. He persecuted his opponents, denied the…

The electoral rating of someone outside an election is hardly relevant, it only matters on election day. On that day (in 2018) the result was (according to [1]), 77% (56M) in favour of Putin. The second candidate got 11.9% (8.6M). No doubt this guy is a narcissistic deranged dwarf, but are you suggesting he faked 48M votes?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Russian_presidential_elec...

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#188

Post by s1artibartfast »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #143
agambrahma wrote: post #92

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

This is not a case of punishing individuals. From one of the source links from the linked article: "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event"

Individuals are clearly punished as well. This is like saying civilians killed by a bomb weren't harmed because the intent was to harm the state.

By your logic, Ukrainian individuals aren't being harmed because Russia is invading a country, not the individuals.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#189

Post by adenozine »

brimble wrote: post #47
adenozine wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but what about the livelihoods of the people these actions affect more directly? What if he needs that chess money to pay his bills? It’s heavy handed, imo.

Everyone in Russia is going to be hurting from this. Most of them don't really deserve it, but you can't bring an entire economy to its knees without harming everyone . It'd be kinda weird to single out chess masters to save from the pain, while a grandma on a fixed income is facing shortages and watching her already-meager buying power drop by the day, the low-level staff at various businesses are put on half-time o…

I didn’t single them out; I highlighted this instance in my reply.

I agree with you, and i sympathize for all working folk, everywhere, always, and forever. I was only meaning to point out that people who play chess for a living are technically working folk too, that’s all.

The people of Russia must seize their nation back somehow, whether by means of diplomacy or other means, if necessary.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#190

Post by joeman1000 »

No, this is not unfair. Everyone should be made to squirm until innocent Ukrainians AREN’T being bombed in their apartments. The pressure should apply absolutely everywhere. This persons right to play some stupid chess is meaningless when his country is slaughtering innocent people indiscriminately.
Post reply on HN