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Psychological Operations

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Re: Psychological Operations

#181

Post by graderjs »

wolverine876 wrote: post #176
pastacacioepepe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably a mix. There's a number of fake accounts creating the volume of fake news, while the regular users then pick it up from there. I've never seen such an influx of fake news coming from literally every source. When even newspapers blindly lie it's hard for the regular person to understand what's going on.

> I've never seen such an influx of fake news coming from literally every source. When even newspapers blindly lie it's hard for the regular person to understand what's going on. That's a common tactic of propagadists: To paraylze people - make people feel powerless by convincing them that everything is a lie. Everyone lies, but that doesn't mean there aren't honest people, sociopathic liars, and a big chasm between…

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.

Everything really is propaganda, tho. Nearly.

It's also a basic tactic of propagandists to convince people that only approved narratives are good, and the forbidden ones are propaganda. To try normalize themselves a the self-anointed authority that decides which is which. Just like the liars, criminals and corrupt who say, "trust me, I'm honest. Some people lie a lot, but me, you can trust."

> sociopathic liars,

Like spies, conwomen/conmen and other professional liars?

> No publication is perfect, but there are plenty of very credible ones.[0]

"A bland, and in this case, meaningless statement." ;)

Safest bet is, as I said earlier: read widely!!!

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30550970

Re: Psychological Operations

#182

Post by verisimi »

boston_clone wrote: post #166
verisimi wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live with yourself? What possible ethical basis do you have as an individual have to mess with people (lots of them), lying, misleading, misinforming, etc in order to achieve a goal? Who decides what is a 'good' goal? Does it matter, or do you just do what you are told? I know the answers - you're just following orders, you believe you are working for the good, etc. These are not valid answers - you cannot…

> How do you live with yourself? eh? probably much the same as anyone else who isn't perfect. there seems to be a misconception here that psyop == lying. the majority of psyop is well-presented truths as opposed to intentional deceit. credibility counts, and is easily eroded with careless lies. we did have a fair amount of latitude which objectives we would pursue, however, based on the relevance and estimated effect…

Thank you for answering.

Well-presented 'truths', according to whose perspective?

eg: "reducing roadside bombs is an objectively good goal"

Well, from one perspective - who wants more roadside bombs?!

But if the road side bombs are being put in place by the natives of a country to make things harder for what the natives perceive to be an invading force, to help prevent the occupation and destruction their country, perhaps this is a valid act? Perhaps you would think defending your country against an invader is valid. So, from that perspective, what is the problem with a road side bomb when you are fighting an invading force that can call in airstrikes. Taking action against a far more powerful force in defence of your country is heroic.

The problem with all 'presentations of the truth' is that its not a presentation of truth at all. There is no unbiased perspective. But if you are able to broadcast your message via a megaphone (via the media) loudest you probably 'win' - by lying to everyone.

So, who has 'the truth'? Does the government that pays your paycheck?

You are simply creating and broadcasting the message you have been told to - it is your job - you do what you are told for money. Right or wrong and truth have nothing to do with it. You may think you are doing 'right' but all your are doing is accepting the comforting provided illusions that your paymasters are providing you with to enable you to do that job. They say it is 'right' because it suits their agenda, and you accept that because it suits yours (money and not feeling bad about what you do).

You are not expressing truth, nor is what you are doing aligned with your personal morality, if you even have a personal morality.

Re: Psychological Operations

#183

Post by obscurette »

User23 wrote: post #164
Viliam1234 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Russia was able to create division, why are they so bad at it when it matters - now. Just guessing: It is easier to create division, when you manipulate both sides . It is easier to manipulate both sides, if you genuinely do not care which side wins. As an example, consider vaccination. Trolling only on the anti-vax side would be a rookie mistake. A few bad arguments get made, then they get debunked, for most pe…

I'm not pro-Russia. I oppose virtually all wars, especially ones that have a terrifyingly high chance[1] of solving global warming by nuclear winter. Furthermore, I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian and I didn't have an opinion on the validity of the parties' justifications for the last 8 years of the Donbas conflict and I see no reason to let CNN/FOX/NYT/Twitter or any other American media outlet assign me one now. Th…

It's your personal problem that neo-nazi equals hating jews. As someone who worked with keeping young men away from neo-nazi groups in the past - it's just not true for many groups. The real picture is much more complicated and is more often than not related to simple hate. If you have someone closer to you to hate, every other topic or nationality takes a backseat. Russian imperialism is closer to these groups than anything else now.

Re: Psychological Operations

#184

Post by mistermann »

wolverine876 wrote: post #177
mistermann wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One doesn't have to support the war to simply have an opinion that there's plenty of blame going around, but there's a full court press online insisting this can't possibly be a legitimate stance.

> but there's a full court press online insisting this can't possibly be a legitimate stance. That suggests some conspiracy. Instead of complaining about persecution - a common tacitc to change the subject from the weakness of one's argument - because people disagree with you, how about making your argument and listening to others?

> That suggests some conspiracy.

That's only one theory (a very attractive to the human mind one).

Another is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Living,_biological_s...

> Instead of complaining about persecution

I'm not.

> a common tacitc to change the subject from the weakness of one's argument - because people disagree with you, how about making your argument and listening to others?

Falsely framing people you disagree with as being conspiracy theorists or suffering from delusions of persecution is also an incredibly common tactic....although I suspect most of the time the person doing it doesn't even realize they're doing it.

Re: Psychological Operations

#185

Post by mistermann »

bilbo0s wrote: post #149
mistermann wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty obvious that Russian troll farms have been running massive psyop Alternatively, this narrative is a massive psyop.

Everyone should be sober, dispassionate, and to the extent that it's possible, take off any ideological blinders. It's clearly more likely than not that both are true.

> It's clearly more likely than not that both are true.

Very few people seem to have the ability to realize this, on certain topics. It is a major bug in evolved consciousness.

Re: Psychological Operations

#186

Post by Viliam1234 »

User23 wrote: post #164
Viliam1234 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Russia was able to create division, why are they so bad at it when it matters - now. Just guessing: It is easier to create division, when you manipulate both sides . It is easier to manipulate both sides, if you genuinely do not care which side wins. As an example, consider vaccination. Trolling only on the anti-vax side would be a rookie mistake. A few bad arguments get made, then they get debunked, for most pe…

I'm not pro-Russia. I oppose virtually all wars, especially ones that have a terrifyingly high chance[1] of solving global warming by nuclear winter. Furthermore, I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian and I didn't have an opinion on the validity of the parties' justifications for the last 8 years of the Donbas conflict and I see no reason to let CNN/FOX/NYT/Twitter or any other American media outlet assign me one now. Th…

> rest assured there is a pro-Russia side, we just don't get to hear it.

Lucky you! I hear a lot of it. Here is a summary, if you wish -- everything is USA/NATO's fault; war is horrible and the best way to end it is to stop supporting Ukraine and convince them to give up; if you say anything negative about Putin or doubt his words, then you are a hysterical warmonger and the good and decent people should make sure that you will be properly punished for that.

> the infantilization of the subject in the West is depressing.

For me the depressing thing is the assumption that 50% of media in the West should be the voice of Russian trolls, otherwise something is wrong with the West.

Re: Psychological Operations

#187

Post by User23 »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #186
User23 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not pro-Russia. I oppose virtually all wars, especially ones that have a terrifyingly high chance[1] of solving global warming by nuclear winter. Furthermore, I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian and I didn't have an opinion on the validity of the parties' justifications for the last 8 years of the Donbas conflict and I see no reason to let CNN/FOX/NYT/Twitter or any other American media outlet assign me one now. Th…

> rest assured there is a pro-Russia side, we just don't get to hear it. Lucky you! I hear a lot of it. Here is a summary, if you wish -- everything is USA/NATO's fault; war is horrible and the best way to end it is to stop supporting Ukraine and convince them to give up; if you say anything negative about Putin or doubt his words, then you are a hysterical warmonger and the good and decent people should make sure th…

I don’t want to watch Russian propaganda anymore than I want to watch Ukrainian or US propaganda for that matter. You completely missed my point. What I don’t want is for someone else to decide what I can watch for me.

Re: Psychological Operations

#188

Post by justatdotin »

wolverine876 wrote: post #178
justatdotin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi, my city is host to rapidly growing (foreign) usa war bases. As an engaged citizen, I notice that local media over the past 10 years have not given this significant change to our town the scrutiny that any similarly sized development would receive. scandals such as sexual assault are reported by outlets in other cities, but not locally. what advice can you share to help me understand what is being done to so effec…

Where does the US have rapidly growing "war bases"?

I live in Darwin.

when I moved here last century, NSA were already well established, there were bi-annual R&R USA ship visits, and annual joint airforce training.

The USA started to develop a USMC base in 2012

At the time we were instructed that they co-locate and personnel rotate, so you can't call it a base. not a base. definitely not a base.

They began permanently locating USAF assets at our airport a coupla years later.

They are investing $$big in USAF facilities a few hundred km south

AUKUS announcements have included: new bases for five branches of the USA military, including a second USMC MAGTF.

- and with that big step they've given up gaslighting locals with insistence that these are not foreign war bases.

Suddenly the growth of usa war bases switches from being fake news ('notabase') to not news ('they've been building over ten years').

Re: Psychological Operations

#189

Post by electriclizard »

Lascaille wrote: post #137
electriclizard wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>one reason I enjoy limiting how much television I watch Absolutely. I've no delusion that I can combat the manipulation. The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with.

>The best defense is to not absorb the data to begin with. The despair that can result from this is almost unimaginable though. When you separate yourself from the propaganda infrastructure then try to have conversations with people and at the slightest prompting they start vomiting talking points and a viewpoint that's purely based on propaganda... oh god, it's unbearable. And you can't call them stupid because they…

It's too true and so depressing. People can't stand up to the immense volumes of resources and hundreds (thousands?) of years of research these organizations are founded on. All my education has lead me to not participating being the best solution.

Despair is a good word. I couldn't think of a better one to describe the dropping of emotion that I feel when I hear people repeat verbatim.

Wish there were something we could do.

Re: Psychological Operations

#190

Post by wolverine876 »

justatdotin wrote: post #188
wolverine876 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the US have rapidly growing "war bases"?

I live in Darwin. when I moved here last century, NSA were already well established, there were bi-annual R&R USA ship visits, and annual joint airforce training. The USA started to develop a USMC base in 2012 At the time we were instructed that they co-locate and personnel rotate, so you can't call it a base. not a base. definitely not a base. They began permanently locating USAF assets at our airport a coupla years…

I'm actually aware of (some of) the basing in Darwin. Didn't a military-connected Chinese organization acquire a port there also, maybe back when the US Marines started building?

I'm afraid that, given Darwin's location, allied military activity is going to be 'big business'. But the stanadard argument is that China has shown they are going to be aggressive, and that the alliances are much better than facing China alone. But living where a lot of that activity will likely be happening, what is your perspective?

The 'good' news for you, perhaps, is that the US's strategy now is not to concentrate in large bases, which can be overrrun by new and future long-range precision missiles, but to spread out on many smaller facilities.

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