World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#181

Post by pc86 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:12 AM UTC

fouc wrote: post #153

jmcgough wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The growth in octopus consumption is being driven largely by the USA. It's super healthy so I see more middle / upper class Americans eating it. Years ago it was a rare delicacy, now I can walk into most poke bowl restaurants in SF and get octopus. Tapas restaurants have become trendy as well.

I think the only time I've had octopus was when I tried Takoyaki a few times in Japan & Thailand. But honestly I found the diced octopus meat chewy and boring. Not very interested in it. As for health benefits? I doubt it.

It probably depends on what you compare it to. Same caloric amount of 80/20 ground beef? Octopus is almost certainly healthier. Vegetables? Unlikely unless you're really in need of some omega-3s or something.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#182

Post by cgriswald » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:13 AM UTC

codeisawesome wrote: post #169

AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

Is it really ‘free clean shelter’ and ‘free hay’ if, in exchange, their flesh is being harvested at some point? I applaud your efforts for humane animal consumption and I’m shamefully nowhere near your commitment. But I just took issue with the small problem in the mental model.

"Free clean shelter and hay" are the mental model of the cow.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#183

Post by pc86 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:14 AM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #178

pc86 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the slightest bit of guilt eating meat products, including octopus, but it seems pretty self-evident that "pain per pound of meat" is a ridiculous standard. Pain doesn't exist in measurable units, the entire idea of trying to quantify it in relation to food production, much of which happens with little to no pain at all, seems pretty silly.

If we draw on human comparisons, it's generally agreed that more deaths are worse than fewer, and I posit that the weight of a person doesn't factor into that calculus. If we assume that a given quantity of meat will be produced and that animal deaths are undesirable for analogous reasons to human deaths then it's perfectly natural to attempt to minimize deaths per pound.

Maybe (I would argue feeding more people is better), but the GP is referring to pain, not death. Cows can be killed pretty quickly - perhaps not painlessly but pretty close to it. Lobsters not so much.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#184

Post by cgriswald » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:16 AM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #178

pc86 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the slightest bit of guilt eating meat products, including octopus, but it seems pretty self-evident that "pain per pound of meat" is a ridiculous standard. Pain doesn't exist in measurable units, the entire idea of trying to quantify it in relation to food production, much of which happens with little to no pain at all, seems pretty silly.

If we draw on human comparisons, it's generally agreed that more deaths are worse than fewer, and I posit that the weight of a person doesn't factor into that calculus. If we assume that a given quantity of meat will be produced and that animal deaths are undesirable for analogous reasons to human deaths then it's perfectly natural to attempt to minimize deaths per pound.

You're not comparing humans to humans. You're comparing cows to (say) chickens. The underlying assumption then is that chickens and cows share the same experience of pain. That's not proven, seems unlikely to be the case, and is, in any case, currently unmeasurable.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#185

Post by afarviral » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:16 AM UTC

markdown wrote: post #80

pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

Extremely intelligent? Have you worked with cattle before?

I have. Extremely intelligent might be a stretch, but a little. Certainly curious, emotional and social. Id rate them at the level of cats, dogs and pigs. My cat is dumb as fuck, no way she could outsmart a cow.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#186

Post by pc86 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:17 AM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #139

vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

> It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings My mom has always had this ability. We had some horses in a pasture behind our house, and one day we noticed most of the horses had been removed and only one remained. My mom could instantly tell that the one remaining horse, named Pete, was sad to be alone. "Pete is so sad, she's all alone" my mom observed while we…

I think this is the point you're making, but this isn't "perceiving sentience" (whatever that means), it's literally just projects your thoughts and emotions onto an anthropomorphized version of whatever animal you're looking at. Which is the same thing the GP was/is doing, but they haven't "matured" enough cognitively to realize it yet.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#187

Post by Azek » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:17 AM UTC

MathCodeLove wrote: post #51

causasui wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I urge everyone to resist the all-or-nothing approach There is no other moral stance where someone could reasonably say this. Veganism is a moral stance the same way as "racism is bad" and "abusing my spouse is bad" is a moral stance. No one would ever say "I'm trying to limit kicking dogs to just Tuesday-Sunday". > vegan straight edge kids on Instagram who sneak a chicken nugget when no one's looking. You're proje…

I disagree and your comparisons aren't accurate. A more accurate comparison would he to say its like "I'm going to ride my bike to work once a week" or "I'll pick up trash at the local park once a week". I don't have to view eating meat or driving my car an inherently immoral in order to recognize the objective negative ecological impact that those actions have, and to therefore want to engage in some form of harm re…

At risk of getting tedious here, the even-more accurate comparison would be "I'm gonna limit paying someone else to kick a dog from Tuesday to Sunday".

Since there actually exists real-life animal abuse in the case of paying for meat or any animal product ( including dairy ).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#188

Post by cjonas » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

Azek wrote: post #156

rtkaratekid wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

without farming they cease to exist at all...

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#189

Post by jiggunjer » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:20 AM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #173

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

Doesn't it make you want to go back in time to the moment that humans invented the concept of eating animal flesh and putting a stop to it?

No. Because our brains would never have evolved to their current state without meat, and the early animal meat was probably scavenged not hunted. At least wait until agriculture developed to start the ethical debate.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#190

Post by jeswin » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 5:22 AM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #174

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

No, we definitely won't.

But we did finally realize that other races aren't inferior. And that women are equals. So I have hope, that some day we would stop taking their lives just for having a good time. Killing them isn't essential for our survival, or even health.