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How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

bookandsword.com

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Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills. Not in the slightest. The legion on the march has no use for a millstone because nobody's eating bread. They would never carry processed flour, because it spoils quickly. They carried raw grain an…

That sounds wrong but I don't know enough about ancient roman military rations to dispute it. Do you have any sources? I thought they primarily consumed bread (both hardtack and leavened), watered down wine/vinegar, and meat (when available.)

It was wrong. Turning up quick information makes it clear that hardtack was a core part of the military marching diet, and the soldiers could prepare their own bread, though they didn't carry flour.

https://imperiumromanum.pl/en/roman-army/food-in-roman-army/

https://www.comitatus.net/research_files/rations.pdf

Those both seem like decent writeups which cite to several classical sources. The first one mentions porridge (stating that bread was preferred); the second explicitly makes the assumption that all grain becomes bread. We can safely ignore that assumption.

More from that first writeup:

> The daily grain ration (wheat or barley)for one legionary was on average 830 grams and was in the form of unground grain; This was mainly due to the fact that grain spoiled slower than flour.

> The meals of the Roman legionaries were mainly based on wheat, from which two types of food were made:

> mash, called pulse. It was an easier-to-make food that required a mixture of cooked wheat grains, water, salt, fat, and olive oil or milk. Sometimes vegetables or spices were added.

> flatbread (pane). It was the more popular use of grain. The soldiers threshed out the grain, ground it with a device or stone, mixed it with water, salt and spices, and then roasted it over the fire.

So, what's true:

- The legion isn't going to carry a millstone. They're huge and there's no way to justify it.

- The legion isn't going to make itself dependent on the location of local mills. That would defeat the purpose of being a military force.

- The legion isn't going to carry flour, because it spoils. They carry raw grain.

- But they also carry hardtack, which is prepared so as not to spoil quickly.

- A foraging legion already takes raw grain. That's their primary foraging objective. They are not limited to robbing granaries; they're happy to harvest it directly from the field.

- Food preparation is done at a very low level - if the grain is going to be ground, it will be done in parallel by a large number of soldiers personally grinding small amounts of grain each, not by a mill.

- The soldiers often do eat bread. But if you're going to eat bread, you make it from raw grain the same day. This has to occur wherever you happen to be, so you'll be using something like a mortar and pestle.

- Despite the fact that bread is preferred to porridge, sometimes you make porridge anyway. It's much easier to make.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can multiply numbers, of arbitrary size. And I can do it in a few seconds using just a stylus and tablet. So could a Roman or Greek. He'd just need a counting board and some stones. He could probably do it faster than you, as well. Anyone using an abacus today could perform almost exactly the same algorithms, with the added convenience of having beads on rods in a frame instead of an unwieldy counting board and s…

> goes so quickly that it's possible for the person calculating to cheat an onlooker Indeed, the biggest advantage of paper arithmetic is that it leaves a written record: each step in the algorithm can be checked for mistakes afterward. It is otherwise significantly slower and not inherently more accurate than a counting board. The other advantage that paper arithmetic has is that it can be easily reproduced in print…

Chalk (or charcoal) and slate (or other rewritable surfaces) were common before paper was cheap.

Greek and Roman students typically used wax-coated boards and scratched them with styli. The surface could be heated or rubbed to restore its unmarked form.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#183
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you wouldn't be building a steam engine with the tools of Greek artisans in antiquity, not even the ones who built the Antikythera mechanism. Sure you could. The antikythera mechanism shows more than enough skill and precision to make a small one. It might only be a toy for the rich though. I'm not sure if you could afford enough metal to make one large enough to do useful work, and even if you could the fuel…

No, you couldn't. It wasn't until Wilkinson had perfected his boring machine and Watt had a model of a steam engine that could not be be realized because he couldn't get a precise enough bore, that Wilkinson took it upon himself to bore the first steam engine cylinder that worked. In order to get this, there are a lot of steps involved, including the ability to sand cast and bore iron of sufficient quality to take a…

Watt's steam engines were vacuum engines, with power on the condensation stroke. High-pressure expansion engines didn't emerge until after Watt's patents expired in 1800. (I believe they may have been introduced a few years earlier in the United States where Watt's patents had no authority.)

There was no danger of a Watt engine exploding.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#184
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you wouldn't be building a steam engine with the tools of Greek artisans in antiquity, not even the ones who built the Antikythera mechanism. Sure you could. The antikythera mechanism shows more than enough skill and precision to make a small one. It might only be a toy for the rich though. I'm not sure if you could afford enough metal to make one large enough to do useful work, and even if you could the fuel…

> but a large low pressure steam engine is perfectly possible. Irrespective of whether it was possible for the Greeks to make them, what would be the economic incentive for them to build large low pressure steam engines at scale? In our timeline, the only serious application of large low pressure steam engines was pumping water out of mines, from after 1720 or so. Even with the incentive of the industrial revolution,…

Keep in mind that those were typically coal mines, that is, the fuel for the pump engines was literally immediately at hand.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills. Not in the slightest. The legion on the march has no use for a millstone because nobody's eating bread. They would never carry processed flour, because it spoils quickly. They carried raw grain an…

That sounds wrong but I don't know enough about ancient roman military rations to dispute it. Do you have any sources? I thought they primarily consumed bread (both hardtack and leavened), watered down wine/vinegar, and meat (when available.)

The military generally ate what they could take from locals. Until modern transport they couldn't get enough food to support an army any other way

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#186
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you wouldn't be building a steam engine with the tools of Greek artisans in antiquity, not even the ones who built the Antikythera mechanism. Sure you could. The antikythera mechanism shows more than enough skill and precision to make a small one. It might only be a toy for the rich though. I'm not sure if you could afford enough metal to make one large enough to do useful work, and even if you could the fuel…

No, you couldn't. It wasn't until Wilkinson had perfected his boring machine and Watt had a model of a steam engine that could not be be realized because he couldn't get a precise enough bore, that Wilkinson took it upon himself to bore the first steam engine cylinder that worked. In order to get this, there are a lot of steps involved, including the ability to sand cast and bore iron of sufficient quality to take a…

I have some knowledge of machining and how to create precision from nothing, though this isn't very common.

Lack of precision means worse efficiency, crude steam engines with careful handfitting can work well enough. Though this adds times, and as the other replies note it isn't clear if the Greeks had the fuel to run a modern steam engine if you gave them one with a boiler.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple solution: Military industry. Some generals would likely find a mobile mill stone quite useful. When your centuria loot a conquered land they can now take raw grains in addition to processed flour without being tied down to the local stationary mills.

> mobile mill stone ... makes the brigade/regiment/whatever far less mobile for no real benefit.

I'm now intensely curious about the concept of pre-industrial tactical millstones...

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#188
post #6

Clothing remains expensive, except we don't see the true cost.

What hidden costs are accounting for the 2-3 orders of magnitude difference in clothing prices vs. minimum wages?

In at least part, environmental damage, fuel, and resource costs.

The actual input cost of fossil fuels is ~5 million times the market price based on the time-cost of formation.

See Jeffrey S. Dukes, "Burning Buried Sunshine", 2003.

Re: How much did a tunic cost in the Roman Empire? (2021)

#189
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you wouldn't be building a steam engine with the tools of Greek artisans in antiquity, not even the ones who built the Antikythera mechanism. But we do know some things that would seem like crazy hacks to the ancients. For example, I know a simple trick. I can multiply numbers, of arbitrary size. And I can do it in a few seconds using just a stylus and tablet. This would have blown the minds of a learned Roman o…

Why not build a printing press? All you really need to do is carve some wood. As expensive as tunics were, books were much more so. Copying the bible would have taken several months (if not years) of labour. And the ability and control to spread such knowledge faster than others would not only be very lucrative but a source of great power.

The woodblock printing existed in Europe even before Gutenberg. Gutenberg's real contribution was the printing with movable metal types, which were themselves made by means of a hand mould he invented. So you had to carve a letter only once, produce one or several moulds from it and use them to cast identical metal types. This had not only the advantage that the types could faster be arranged into a text than cutting it all in wood. Their clear shapes were not only superior in appearance to any wood cut, but in one respect even to hand writen texts: all the types looked alike. Gutenberg's idea was not to make a cheap product for the masses (or at least for those who could read), but an extremly high-quality product for the top of the elite.[1] It is rather interesting to see that his intent and his actual impact were so far apart.

[1] Cf. this sample from his bible: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenber...

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